[mr1303]

The death hand for Acol seems to be something like:

---

After the auction 1H 1NT, I presume you're meant to pass here?

Supposing the auction proceeds 1H (P) 1S (2C), what do you bid now?

[manudude03]

Pass in the first auction, double in the second.

[jandrew]

mr1303, on 2012-March-16, 14:50, said:

[hv=pc=n&n=sk4hkq73daj72ck62]133|100[/hv

I don't understand this.
Am I getting old?

jandrew

[mr1303]

Sorry, it would appear I accidentally deleted a square bracket.

[bluecalm]

Quote

After the auction 1H 1NT, I presume you're meant to pass here?

My understanding of Acol is very shallow and comes from Kelsey books about cardplay but... why not bid 2N here ?

[Quartic]

bluecalm, on 2012-March-16, 17:29, said:

My understanding of Acol is very shallow and comes from Kelsey books about cardplay but... why not bid 2N here ?

The 1NT response generally shows 6-9. So the idea is you only really want to invite with 17-18. Of course you can always use your judgement as to whether you're worth an invite.

[Cyberyeti]

Depends on the age of your acol. Old style acol will 2/1 with an 8 count with 5m so you can pass 1N and be right a lot of the time.

Over the 2♣ overcall, you can simply X for T/O.

I play a different style of Acol where I open 1♦ not 1♥ and rebid a wide range 1N over 1♠ with a 2♣ enquiry available.

[MickyB]

bluecalm, on 2012-March-16, 17:29, said:

My understanding of Acol is very shallow and comes from Kelsey books about cardplay but... why not bid 2N here ?

A 2/1 response is forcing to game opposite a 15-16 NT. Raising or responding 1NT is to play opposite a 15-16 NT.

[shevek]

mr1303, on 2012-March-16, 14:50, said:

The death hand for Acol seems to be something like:

---

After the auction 1H 1NT, I presume you're meant to pass here?

Supposing the auction proceeds 1H (P) 1S (2C), what do you bid now?

Don't lose sleep. Yes, you'll miss the odd 16+9 3NT when you pass with that 16 count. I would raise vul at IMPs but even that is unclear with no 10s or 9s.
After the 2♣ overcall, I like X = 15-17 balanced. Not takeout, not penalty, not support.

All systems have death hands.
In SAYC, one "death" hand is responder's 11-count after 1M - 2m - 2NT (12-14).
I believe a complete system has been devised to solve that one.
A sledgehammer to crack a nut.

[gnasher]

mr1303, on 2012-March-16, 14:50, said:

After the auction 1H 1NT, I presume you're meant to pass here?

Yes. Have you noticed how few of England's top players play Acol with a weak notrump?

Quote

Supposing the auction proceeds 1H (P) 1S (2C), what do you bid now?

As others have said, you can play double as a strong notrump, or as including a strong notrump. In this sequence it's OK to play double as just the strong notrump; with a takeout double you can make your normal rebid.

In the equivalent sequence where thy have overcalled 2♦, however, that doesn't work so well. You need to be able to show a 3514 shape and a 2434 shape, and making the same bid with both isn't likely to work well.

This post has been edited by gnasher: 2012-March-17, 03:18

[FrancesHinden]

mr1303, on 2012-March-16, 14:50, said:

The death hand for Acol seems to be something like:

---

After the auction 1H 1NT, I presume you're meant to pass here?

Supposing the auction proceeds 1H (P) 1S (2C), what do you bid now?

Yes. The idea of playing light 2/1s is that when partner doesn't make a 2/1, you don't have game on. You might miss a playable 16 opposite 9, in the same way as many standard systems struggle with 14 opposite 10.
On the second auction, play double as showing a strong NT.

[FrancesHinden]

gnasher, on 2012-March-17, 03:15, said:

Yes. Have you noticed how few of England's top players play Acol with a weak notrump?

Few, yes, but not none. I haven't done the sums exactly, but I believe the partnership with the best Butler in last year's premier league were playing Acol weak.

[ahydra]

I find this "[hv=pc=n&n=sk4hkq73daj72ck62]133|100[/hv" easier to read than the miniscule hand diagram that it produces when the ] is replaced on the end. (The hand diagrams are broken in IE but seem to work ok in Firefox)

It translates to
♠K4
♥KQ73
♦AJ72
♣K62

1H-1NT
Pass is sensible particularly at matchpoints. Maybe at teams you'd try 2NT but it's still a bit pushy because this is a very ordinary 16-count.

1H-(p)-1S-(2C)
Double is perfect here - showing a strong-no-trump (in strength, and roughly in shape since otherwise you could just bid another suit).

1H-(p)-1S-(2D)
2NT looks good (15-19 bal stop in diamonds).

Edit - why did I pick X over 2C rather than 2NT, despite holding a club stop? I guess because doubling gets diamonds into the picture. With 4 in the unbid suit X feels right.

ahydra

[Statto]

ahydra, on 2012-March-17, 10:26, said:

1H-(p)-1S-(2D)
2NT looks good (15-19 bal stop in diamonds).

2NT would normally be about 17-19 here. With such a wide [15-19] range, how is responder to judge whether to bid 3NT? And if you bid 2NT here with a 15 count you could end up playing 2NT with a combined 21 count. Though with the given hand it looks a reasonable upgrade with the ♦ sitting over RHO.

[mr1303]

So, do most "top Acol players" (put in parenthesis as there don't appear to be that many) use strong NT doubles? If so, how do they continue after this? It's always occurred to me that bidding after a strong NT double, it can be quite difficult to successfully evaluate opposite this kind of hand, where presumably there's no mention of a stopper in the suit, or shortage in the overcalled suit or anything similar.

A further question: What do you do with

---

after the auction 1S 2D if you're playing these light 2/1s?

[jallerton]

mr1303, on 2012-March-16, 14:50, said:

The death hand for Acol seems to be something like:

---

After the auction 1H 1NT, I presume you're meant to pass here?

Supposing the auction proceeds 1H (P) 1S (2C), what do you bid now?

Your are confusing "Acol", a general approach to bidding which has been around for over 75 years with "Standard English", a system devised about 15 years ago by Sandra Landy, intended to be a standard system to be taught to beginners.

Acol can be played with a weak or strong NT opening (the most popular version of original Acol used both: weak NT when not vulnerable and strong NT when vulnerable). In common with the Acol "bid what you like" principle, if outside the 1NT opening range it is quite possible to open 1♦ or 1♥ on the quoted hand. 1♦ is more scientific as it leaves the partnership more room to find a fit.

I agree with other posters: I would pass after 1♦/♥-P-1NT-P (this is not going to make 9 tricks too often on the likely spade lead) and I would double to show a strong NT type hand after 1♦/♥-P-1♠-2♣. If you play weak NT, it's useful to have a call available to show a strong NT having opened 1 of a suit and support doubles are a lot less useful.

[jallerton]

mr1303, on 2012-March-18, 07:35, said:

So, do most "top Acol players" (put in parenthesis as there don't appear to be that many) use strong NT doubles? If so, how do they continue after this? It's always occurred to me that bidding after a strong NT double, it can be quite difficult to successfully evaluate opposite this kind of hand, where presumably there's no mention of a stopper in the suit, or shortage in the overcalled suit or anything similar.

Bid naturally, or cue bid to show a game force and ask for a stop. Sometimes Responder can pass the double, of course.

mr1303, on 2012-March-18, 07:35, said:

A further question: What do you do with

---

after the auction 1S 2D if you're playing these light 2/1s?

2♠

[shevek]

mr1303, on 2012-March-18, 07:35, said:

So, do most "top Acol players" (put in parenthesis as there don't appear to be that many) use strong NT doubles? If so, how do they continue after this? It's always occurred to me that bidding after a strong NT double, it can be quite difficult to successfully evaluate opposite this kind of hand, where presumably there's no mention of a stopper in the suit, or shortage in the overcalled suit or anything similar.

A further question: What do you do with

---

after the auction 1S 2D if you're playing these light 2/1s?

Rebid 2♠. This is a 5-carder more often than we'd like, more often than in Standard.
David Morgan showed me a neat patch for this. After say

1♠ - 2♦
2♠ - ?

Responder usually bids 3NT with a doubleton as choice of games. ("Pass with 5, bid 4♠ with 6")
With no desire to play 4♠, responder bids a new suit first. Works well.






If double = 15-17 balanced, responder is indeed under some pressure. In practice this method seems to work okay.
Note that you can still use the same double in these auctions:
1♣ - (no) - 1♥ - (1♠)
X

1♥ - (no) - 2♣ - (2♦)
X

Here opener had the option of showing 15-17 bal with a stopper if he wished, so double is no stop or maybe Axx, hoping partner has Qx.

[jallerton]

shevek, on 2012-March-18, 18:55, said:

Rebid 2♠. This is a 5-carder more often than we'd like, more often than in Standard.
David Morgan showed me a neat patch for this. After say

1♠ - 2♦
2♠ - ?

Responder usually bids 3NT with a doubleton as choice of games. ("Pass with 5, bid 4♠ with 6")
With no desire to play 4♠, responder bids a new suit first. Works well.

Interesting. To extend this principle, suppose Responder is 1444. Are you suggesting that the auction might start 1♠-2♣-2♠-3♦? If so, it would be dangerous for Opener to ever give preference to 4♣.

[gordontd]

shevek, on 2012-March-18, 18:55, said:

Rebid 2♠. This is a 5-carder more often than we'd like, more often than in Standard.

Wouldn't you rebid 2♠ with the same hand in "standard"?