[duffer66]

I am curious to know the requirements for a two bid in 4th seat; have seen several differing opinions on web search. Thanks in advance

[wyman]

As on your web search, you'll probably get (moderately) differing opinions here as well.

People tend to play "intermediate" twos in 4th seat. As you no longer have a need for a preemptive call, your 4th seat bids should have the expectation of going +. Typically, this is a 6 card suit, 10-14 or so, with a good honor holding (some play 2 of 3, some play 3 of 5, etc). It should have _some_ expectation of making a game opposite a passed hand, but only a very good one.

[Zelandakh]

duffer66, on 2012-March-16, 07:19, said:

I am curious to know the requirements for a two bid in 4th seat; have seen several differing opinions on web search. Thanks in advance

Hello and welcome to the forums.

The requirements are simply what you and your partner agree. Traditionally people played strong twos in 4th seat even if they played weak in other seats. This approach has mostly lost out to using the 2 level opening for a minimum one-suited opening bid, say 10-14 ish. Some others feel they can handle the weakest hands better in the normal way and prefer to show a middle-range one-suited hand directly with the 2M opening; typical here would be somewhere in the 14-16 range. Another possibility you see occasionally is to use 2♣ and 2♦ for stronger hands (Benji-style, or with a Mexican 2♦) and for 2M to be the weak minimum opening. Of course you could also play a Mexican 2♦ in conjunction with strong twos in the majors. And yet another one (which I have never seen but seems reasonable) is for strong twos in the majors with 2♦ as a strong two in an undisclosed minor.

To be honest it does not matter so much what you are playing so much as that you and partner agree to something. Without discussion I would expect the second of these, a minimum one-suited opening bid, assuming that we were otherwise playing weak twos.

[kenrexford]

Not that I have ever played this way, but if you keep weak two-bids defined as say 5-11 HCP but also apply Cansino Count, then you end up with a fairly interesting 4th-Seat structure:

2♠ = 5♠ and 10-11 HCP, or 6♠ with 9-11 HCP

2♥ = 5♥, 4♠, and 11 HCP, or 6♥, 4♠, and 10-11 HCP, or 6♥, 3♠, and 11 HCP

2♦ = 5♦, 4♠, and 11 HCP, or 6♦, 4♠, and 10-11 HCP, or 6♦, 3♠, and 11 HCP.

You could summarize/modifiy this to a simpler version:

2♠ = weak two with 9-11 HCP

2♥ = 5-6♥, 4♠, 10-12 HCP

2♦ = 5-6♦, 4♠, 10-12 HCP

[HighLow21]

wyman, on 2012-March-16, 07:27, said:

As on your web search, you'll probably get (moderately) differing opinions here as well.

People tend to play "intermediate" twos in 4th seat. As you no longer have a need for a preemptive call, your 4th seat bids should have the expectation of going +. Typically, this is a 6 card suit, 10-14 or so, with a good honor holding (some play 2 of 3, some play 3 of 5, etc). It should have _some_ expectation of making a game opposite a passed hand, but only a very good one.

Agreed with wyman on this, though I have a small refinement: if we have no need whatsoever for preemption in 4th seat, why bid a weak 2♥ in 4th seat at all? One reason, as wyman pointed out, is that it is an accurate description of the hand.

The other reason is subtle: 2♥ opening in 4th seat is harder to compete over than 1♥, intending to rebid 2♥ over any non-raise response by partner. Thus 2♥ is slightly preemptive in the sense that it makes it harder for LHO/RHO to contest the partscore (which is where you will want to play most of the time: a partscore in hearts).

It will be a lot more common in this situation, if you open with these 4th seat hands, that you will wind up defending a making 2♠ or 3♠ or 3♦/♣, when you open 1♥ than when you open 2♥.

[ArtK78]

This topic has come up numerous times. That is not a criticism - it is merely a statement of fact.

I open a "weak 2 bid" in fourth seat on any hand that I would open one in first or second seat with the intention of rebidding 2 over any response by partner.

[mycroft]

Another good reason to bid 2♥ in 4th with this kind of hand - it announces immediately to partner that you have a one-suiter heart hand, and if he offers another suit, it had better be "his suit" (in which case, why did he pass and not preempt? Yes, there are reasons - and those negative inferences are very useful).

Now, if it goes fourth-seat 1♥ - whatever non-raise - 2♥ (with or without competition), there's a strong implication that opener has a second suit that responder didn't hit. Of course, that only applies if you're playing 2♥ as "minimum opener strength".

[MrAce]

What Wyman said for me.

[the hog]

I play a 2 bid in 4th seat as a hand with a decent 6 card suits and about 15-16 HCP, in other words an intermediate 2. This is so that I am not forced to rebid 3 if partner responds to a 1 level opening. Partner also knows that he only needs a bit to make game and can show concentrated values in a side suit. I find this far more useful than the "strong weak 2s' advocated by most here.

[jdeegan]

You pose an excellent question. If it goes three passes to you, and you have an average minimum opening hand in terms of high cards, then the main reason to open for two is that you have a good six card suit and have as good as or better hand than anyone else at the table. Your hope is to buy the contract right there and make it. (think 8-10 HCP spread evenly around the table with pard holding a doubleton in your suit). Game should be unlikely opposite a passed partner. If you have a king better than a minimum opening bid, then open for a one bid and think about trying for game if partner shows some signs of life.

[FrancesHinden]

wyman has explained the most common agreement for people who play weak twos in the other positions - about 10-14 or so with 6 hearts. Strong enough that it is likely to be your hand (so you don't want to pass the board out) but not strong enough to open 1H and rebid 3H. It's partly pre-emptive, to stop an easy 1S overcall or double, and partly constructive. The only game you are likely to bid is 4H: partner should raise on hands with aces and trumps.

Zelandakh, on 2012-March-16, 07:37, said:

And yet another one (which I have never seen but seems reasonable) is for strong twos in the majors with 2♦ as a strong two in an undisclosed minor.

Away from the original question, but in partnerships where I play a multi 2D in other seats, I play 2M as strong in fourth seat and open the multi on the typical '4th seat weak two' type hand.

[Quantumcat]

Partner should be expected to raise to game with any maximum pass, or a medium pass and good shape (e.g. any hand with 4 card support and a singleton, or an 8-count with 3-card support and not flat). So while no particular HCP is required, you think about what partner will need to raise with. If you can make game when partner will pass the jump-opening, then open at the one-level.

[32519]

In 4th seat we open 2♥ or 2♠ with a 14-15 HCP hand. Knowing within 1 HCP what opener's hand looks like, places partner in a better position to decide whether game is on or not.

[HighLow21]

32519, on 2012-March-19, 00:18, said:

In 4th seat we open 2♥ or 2♠ with a 14-15 HCP hand. Knowing within 1 HCP what opener's hand looks like, places partner in a better position to decide whether game is on or not.

Only if HCP count is a good basis for knowing how to respond, which it isn't in many cases. Obviously the bid will include a decent to great 6-card suit, but it tells you absolutely nothing about the rest of the bidder's shape, where his side values are, and therefore which shortness and non-Ace honors in responder's hand are valuable and which ones are worthless. If you've got a maximum pass with aces and/or a side suit with a source of tricks and/or great support and a ruffing value, fine. But this treatment won't help much if some or all of these aren't the case, e.g., which of these hands will make a game:

Responder Hand 1: KTx♠ J8♥ A7xxx♦ JT3♣
Responder Hand 2: A7xxx♠ J8♥ KTx♦ JT3♣

Does the 2♥ opener have:

Opener Hand 1: QJ8♠ KQT954♥ xx♦ AK♣
or
Opener Hand 2: xx♠ KQT954♥ QJ8♦ AK♣

?

R/O Hands 1 and R/O Hands 2 when paired will nearly always make game, but Pair R1 with O2 or vice versa, and game depends on finesses and/or guessing and/or some luck.

[32519]

HighLow21, on 2012-March-19, 11:55, said:

< snip >

You have made a lengthy post here arguing why something will work or won’t work. Let me fill you in on the finer detail of how and why we play fourth seat 2♥ or 2♠ promising a 6-card suit and 14-15 HCP.

Here’s the deal:
In 1st and 2nd seat we open standard weak 2’s with 5-11 HCP. When responder has 15+ HCP and game interest, we play “Feature Showing” 2NT.
In 4th seat this basic agreement has been “flipped.” Now it is opener showing the 6-card suit and 14-15 HCP. Armed with this information, responder has plenty of options. Your partnership can agree on which of the following you wish to incorporate:
1. Pass is obvious. No interest in further exploration.
2. 2NT = interest in playing 3NT from responders side, 10-11 HCP. Responder has some guarded Kings and wishes to protect them. Responder is also showing a 2-card fit with openers major and is hoping to make 6 tricks in openers major plus another 3 anywhere else.
3. 3 any = shortness and game interest in openers major. Opener can decide if the shortness fits in with the rest of his hand. Due to lack of trumps in responders hand, this option is not recommended.
4. 3 any = length and game interest in openers major. A possible source of tricks and is a better option than 3.
5. Picture Showing = showing an Ace or King in the suit bid and interest in game in openers suit.
6. 3M = balanced/semi balanced with 10-11 HCP, no Kings needing protection. The bid invites 3NT from opener's side or 4M.