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Puppet Stayman Is it worth it?

#49 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2012-March-16, 11:21

View Post32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

Disadvantages:
1. You lose Garbage Stayman
2. Brain drain in the follow up bidding
3. The auction is now forced to 2NT, so you need at least invitational values (8-9 HCP)
4. Opponents can double artificial bids during the bidding for lead direction or even sacrifice
5. When playing 1NT-3 as Puppet Stayman, you lose an alternate meaning for the 3 bid


This is an inaccurate mish-mash. 1, 2(?) and 3 apply only to 2 Puppet Stayman, and 5 only to 3 Puppet Stayman. So you can never suffer all of these disadvantages at once.
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#50 User is offline   Statto 

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Posted 2012-March-16, 23:49

View Post32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

Over a 1NT Opening Bid
Disadvantages:
3. The auction is now forced to 2NT, so you need at least invitational values (8-9 HCP)
5. When playing 1NT-3 as Puppet Stayman, you lose an alternate meaning for the 3 bid

These are mutually exclusive.

Quote

Over a 2NT Opening Bid:
Disadvantages:
2. Brain drain in the follow up bidding
3. Forgetting that you are playing Puppet Stayman and not Standard Stayman

I don't consider these valid disadvantages if you know what you're doing.

Quote

4. More information disclosed to the opponents
8. The purpose of Puppet Stayman is to find 5-3 major fits when opener has opened 2NT with a 5-card major. Thus, responder will use puppet Stayman more often than he would use regular Stayman, since responder will use it on some hands with just a 3-card major as well as on hands with a 4-card major. This means that information about opener's hand will be revealed to the opponents more often.

Don't these amount to the same thing?

Quote

(If responder never uses puppet Stayman without a 4-card major, then I don't see the point of playing Puppet).

4-3 in the majors?

Quote

12. How do you show minor suit hands after: 2NT-3-3-?

By bidding your minor?

Quote

13. The 5-3 major fit is not that important at IMPS. The major suit fit most often produces 10 tricks versus 9 in NT. 1 IMP is lost. 4M plus 3NT both making 10 tricks is a push. 3NT making versus 4M down 1 is a huge gain.

What about when 4M makes and 3NT goes off due to lack of adequate stops?

Edit: did not see next page of responses, sorry if duplicated what others have said.

This post has been edited by Statto: 2012-March-16, 23:53

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#51 User is offline   Statto 

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Posted 2012-March-17, 00:08

View PostZelandakh, on 2012-March-16, 08:53, said:

View Post32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

3. The auction is now forced to 2NT, so you need at least invitational values (8-9 HCP)

This I did not understand at all. You need invitational values for normal Stayman too unless you are bidding it on an Exit Stayman or Crawling Stayman hand.

I think this means if you're weak with 5-4 in the majors you can't check for a 4-4 fit before signing off in the 5 card major (if you play this as NF, rather than invitational).
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#52 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2012-March-17, 01:12

This thread has received a lot of emotional feedback defending Puppet Stayman, probably from people who use it. All the negatives listed on Chris Ryall's website posed the question, “Is Puppet Stayman really worth the effort?”

Maybe I’m wrong, but these forums are here for less experienced players to learn from the more experienced ones. I am now asking these more experienced players to compile a comprehensive convincing list of advantages “Why anyone should switch to Puppet Stayman?” I will place the first one. Kindly add the rest:

Advantages of playing Puppet Stayman: Over 1NT
1. Can include a 5-card major suit holding within your 1NT range.
2.
3.
4.

Advantages of playing Puppet Stayman: Over 2NT
1. Can include a 5-card major suit holding within your 1NT range
2.
3.
4.

I will be the first to apologise if the list of advantages are enough, therein not requiring a rethink of Puppet Stayman
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#53 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2012-March-17, 02:22

View Post32519, on 2012-March-17, 01:12, said:

I will place the first one. Kindly add the rest:

Maybe kindly read the f**** thread?
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#54 User is offline   Quantumcat 

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Posted 2012-March-19, 00:31

My two cents.

View Post32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

Over a 1NT Opening Bid
Advantages:
1. You can include 5-card majors within your 1NT range

Over a 2NT Opening Bid:
Advantages:
1. You can include 5-card majors within your 2NT range

It is standard to include all balanced hands in NT openings even if you don't use puppet stayman.

View Post32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

3. Forgetting that you are playing Puppet Stayman and not Standard Stayman

I would as soon forget I was playing Puppet Stayman instead of Regular Stayman as forget I was playing Keycard Blackwood and not regular Blackwood.

View Post32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

4. More information disclosed to the opponents

Exactly the same amount as regular Stayman - in fact less, if the auction goes 2NT 3 3 3NT - they don;t know which 4-card major opener has, whereas 2NT 3 3 3NT tells them explicitly.

View Post32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

6. Responder with 5+3, the partnership may have a 5-3 or fit. If you play Puppet the 5-3 fit is lost. If you transfer to then the 5-3 fit is lost. You cannot butter your bread on both sides. The odds say that it is better to transfer into the suit.

And common sense too - anytime you have two fits, better to play in the weaker hand's fit. The rationale being they have fewer entries and once it is set up it might be stranded. While if it is trumps, the small cards will always take tricks. This is the same reason that with a yarborough and a five card major opposite a 1NT opening, you always transfer to the suit. In 1NT that suit would be useless.

View Post32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

7. You cannot show a 5+4 holding effectively (with 4+5 it is easy to transfer into the suit and then bid the suit).

This is ALWAYS a problem - nothing whatsoever to do with Puppet Stayman.

View Post32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

8. The purpose of Puppet Stayman is to find 5-3 major fits when opener has opened 2NT with a 5-card major. Thus, responder will use puppet Stayman more often than he would use regular Stayman, since responder will use it on some hands with just a 3-card major as well as on hands with a 4-card major. This means that information about opener's hand will be revealed to the opponents more often. (If responder never uses puppet Stayman without a 4-card major, then I don't see the point of playing Puppet).

Actually, LESS information is transferred - using it more often means the opponents are less likely to know what's going on. The old adage of always leading a major against 2NT-3NT or 1NT-3NT because responder failed to use stayman is lost - responder could equally well use stayman whether he has his own major or not! Also, the 3 bid showing a four-card major doesn't disclose which it is, so less information is given to the opponents than regular stayman.

View Post32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

9. How often do you and your partner open 2NT with a 5-card major? If the answer is only if the 5-card major is so good that no 3-card support will help it or only if the 5-card major is so bad that you need 3 honors to make it worthwhile to play as a trump suit, then you don't need puppet Stayman at all.

It is standard to always open 1NT or 2NT with a balanced hand and the right point-count - if you don't you are living in the (long-distant) past.

View Post32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

10. How often do you open 2NT when you are precisely 4-4 in the majors? If the answer is as often as possible, then the more common variation of Stayman is far more useful.

Again, whenever you have a balanced hand!

View Post32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

12. How do you show minor suit hands after: 2NT-3-3-?

Easy - bid your minor. That usually shows slam interest with a long minor suit. Opener can reject the slam invite with 4NT. More importantly, is after 2NT 3 3NT (no major). The solution? Play Muppet Stayman, where the 3 and 3NT bids are switched. Then 3 after 3 is minor suit stayman.

View Post32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

13. The 5-3 major fit is not that important at IMPS. The major suit fit most often produces 10 tricks versus 9 in NT. 1 IMP is lost. 4M plus 3NT both making 10 tricks is a push. 3NT making versus 4M down 1 is a huge gain.

Actually, you only want to play in 3NT with a major suit fit when you have an excess of high-card points (27-30 for 3NT instead of 4-major, 34 - 37 for 6NT instead of 6-major - with 31-33 and a major fit, you'd usually try for 6-major). In this situation, you are often making the same number of tricks in NT as the major, as well as having safety when the suit splits badly (you should have enough high cards outside of the major to find nine tricks). When you don't have an excess of high cards, it is better to play in the major, for safety against them finding the killer lead, or any of the other three suits splitting badly.

The most useful time to have Puppet Stayman in your arsenal is when you want to overcall 2NT over 2 but you have five spades and are worried they might be lost, whereas if you overcall 2 you don;t get across your shape and strength. Perfect solution - play Puppet Stayman over natural 2NT overcalls, then you never need worry about losing that 5-card major!
I Transfers
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#55 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2012-March-19, 00:35

I nominate this thread as "most quotes used thread" in all times :D
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"

"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."





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#56 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2012-March-19, 04:26

Actually Erin, you can show both 54 and 45 hands nicely by using Smolen after Regular Stayman.
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#57 User is offline   campboy 

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Posted 2012-March-19, 05:27

View PostQuantumcat, on 2012-March-19, 00:31, said:

Actually, LESS information is transferred - using it more often means the opponents are less likely to know what's going on. The old adage of always leading a major against 2NT-3NT or 1NT-3NT because responder failed to use stayman is lost - responder could equally well use stayman whether he has his own major or not! Also, the 3 bid showing a four-card major doesn't disclose which it is, so less information is given to the opponents than regular stayman.

That argument is flawed. If the auction starts 2NT - 3 - 3 using puppet then either responder is going to enquire further or he would not have bid (4-card) Stayman if he wasn't playing puppet. In the former case oppo will find out which major opener has anyway; in the latter case puppet has given away information about opener's hand.
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#58 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2012-March-24, 08:54

One of our regular posters gives the thumbs down on Puppet Stayman in this thread (post number 2).
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#59 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-March-24, 09:35

Another poster supplies a very good alternative to Puppet and the continuations after a 2NT opening here:

View Postmikeh, on 2011-November-10, 11:05, said:

How about this scheme:

3 stayman, responses as follows:

3: no 4 card major, no 5 card suit, may have 5
3: 4 hearts, may have 4
3: 4, denies 4
3N: 5

Over 3, responder bids 3 with all non-smolen hands, and bids 3 with 4 and longer hearts, 3N with 4s and longer spades, non-forcing, and 4 with 4 and longer spades, unwilling to play 3N (too strong or too shapely).

Over 3, which may have spades as well as hearts, responder bids 3 to puppet to 3N, denying spades, and either 3N or 4N or 5N with 4 spades...3N to pass or correct, 4N as invitational, p/c and 5n as forcing with 4.

Over the 3N response to 3, 4 by responder transfers to hearts.

This seems to cover all of the relevant bases and allows one to use puppet as well as smolen while (usually) getting the strong hand as declarer.

"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#60 User is offline   glen 

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Posted 2012-March-24, 10:20

View Postaguahombre, on 2012-March-24, 09:35, said:

Another poster supplies a very good alternative to Puppet and the continuations after a 2NT opening here: ...

See note 14 on this 2007 Bermuda Bowl cc (Frukacz was on Consus Red team that lost yesterday in the Vandy):

frukacz-klimowicz.pdf
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#61 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2012-March-27, 00:11

The effort expended to overcome the shortfalls of Puppet Stayman is truly amazing. Is the diversity and complexity of the continuation bidding structure (not to mention added memory load) really worth all this effort just to have the luxury of being able to include a 5-card major into your 2NT range?

Why not try something much simpler?
2 = 20+ HCP unbalanced (which would make room for your 5-card major), or 22+ HCP any
2NT = 20-21 HCP denying a 5-card major
The continuation bidding structures could look something like this:
2 = 20+ unbalanced or 22+ any
....2 = Waiting 5-7 HCP
....2 = Double negative 0-4 HCP (because the 2 HCP range has been lowered, you can increase the negative response by 1 HCP)
....Anything else = 8+ HCP according to partnership agreement
After 2 it is easy to show your 5-card major on the 2-level instead of the 3-level.
After the 2 Double Negative, the 2 bidder bids appropriately which can include Pass with a 20 HCP count and a 5-card suit. Unfortunately the strong hand is on table but you are less likely to go down in a 2-level contract than a 3-level contract. With 5, it is easy to correct to 2 over 2.
If you don’t want the strong hand on the table, try this:
2-3 (double negative). This way you are 1 level higher but with the strong hand declaring with a 5-card suit. Anything else other than 2-3 can promise 5+ HCP.
[Bad idea as pointed out by Zalandakh]

With 2NT denying a 5-card major, you get to keep all your old gadgets e.g. Garbage Stayman, Smolen. The reduced memory load is considerable.
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#62 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2012-March-27, 00:19

yet agian puppet seems silly........



whatever gain seems tiny
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#63 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2012-March-27, 00:53

View Post32519, on 2012-March-27, 00:11, said:

The effort expended to overcome the shortfalls of Puppet Stayman is truly amazing.

Which shortfalls specifically. Can you name me a common hand type that a puppet-based scheme cannot handle which a Staymanic scheme could?

View Post32519, on 2012-March-27, 00:11, said:

Why not try something much simpler?
2 = 20+ HCP unbalanced (which would make room for your 5-card major), or 22+ HCP any

Well my 2 opening is 10-14 and natural; but assuming I was playing a natural system for a moment...

View Post32519, on 2012-March-27, 00:11, said:

2 = 20+ unbalanced or 22+ any
... -3 (double negative).

How do you plan to continue after this? You have to manage all 22+ balanced hands as well as Acol 2s and game-forcing hands in all suits - at the 3 level. Go away and test this for a few hands and then come back and tell us again that it is a good and simple idea. Do you not think that if there were a much simpler and better method that most of the multitude of expert partnerships playing some variation on Puppet would not be using it? The truth is that a well-designed Puppet scheme gives you more options over 2NT. There are minuses too for sure and it is much easier to misuse Puppet than regular Stayman. However, the majority seem to believe that overall the benefits outweigh the detractions. I happen to agree with this but am always open to a better method when I find it. Unfortunately the method above is not.
(-: Zel :-)
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#64 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2012-March-27, 01:16

When is responder allowed to pass 2NT when your 2NT may include a 5-card major and 20-21 HCP?
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#65 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2012-March-27, 01:31

View Post32519, on 2012-March-27, 01:16, said:

When is responder allowed to pass 2NT when your 2NT may include a 5-card major and 20-21 HCP?

When they do not have enough for game.
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#66 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2012-March-27, 02:14

So you feel that playing 2NT which includes a 5-card major opposite a bust is better than playing 2 or 2 opposite a bust? Those trumps may just become vital. If 2NT makes versus 2M making, it is a push at IMPs. On the other hand, 2M making versus 2NT down 1, the gain is big.

I can understand players using Puppet Stayman if their 2 meaning is something like yours. Natural systems (2/1, SAYC), won’t convince me to include Puppet Stayman.
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#67 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2012-March-27, 05:58

View Post32519, on 2012-March-27, 02:14, said:

So you feel that playing 2NT which includes a 5-card major opposite a bust is better than playing 2 or 2 opposite a bust? Those trumps may just become vital. If 2NT makes versus 2M making, it is a push at IMPs. On the other hand, 2M making versus 2NT down 1, the gain is big.

I can understand players using Puppet Stayman if their 2 meaning is something like yours. Natural systems (2/1, SAYC), won’t convince me to include Puppet Stayman.

Remind me again how we are playing 2M after the start 2 - 3, which is the equivalent auction to 2NT - p in your proposed method to which I was referring. You also have a second method with a 2 bust. That is probably better but now you have to jump to 3 just to show a game-forcing hand. Again, play with this a bit before suggesting this is an improvement. Is it really worth crippling your constructive bidding just to avoid playing an extremely simple and easy convention like Puppet?

And just so you know, in my strong club system 1 - 1; 2NT - 3 is indeed a form of Puppet Stayman; similarly for 1 - 1; 1 - 1; 2NT - 3. I also play it after a 1NT opening as well as after 1 - 1; 1NT and 1 - 1; 1 - 1; 1NT. In other words, pretty much whenever I can. This allows all of the other openings to be unbalanced. As I wrote earlier this is actually a major point that you are missing in your analysis. If I could not handle any major hand types using it then I would not. This is the other major aspect of Puppet and I will re-iterate it since I think you missed it the first time around.

View PostZelandakh, on 2012-March-27, 00:53, said:

Can you name me a common hand type that a puppet-based scheme cannot handle which a Staymanic scheme could?


I do understand bluecalm's position that the artificial bids are too vulnerable to easy doubles from the opponents. I may not agree but it is a perfectly valid opinion. I do not understand a position which says Puppet is too complicated while throwing extra hand types into the 2 opening is not. Or that it is possible to move hands out of a 2NT opening without it impacting other areas of the system. Or indeed that the analysis you posted has any bearing or weight whatsoever. Indeed I have not seen you address any of the points I raised in my (longest post ever) message, nor those from the other posters that took the time to respond.

The truth is that I have now written several lengthy responses to bidding queries that you have raised, using time that I could have spent doing some of the work I am being paid for. I am starting to reach the conclusion that this effort is probably not worth it. It would be nice if you could prove me wrong in this regard...
(-: Zel :-)
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#68 User is offline   Codo 

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Posted 2012-March-27, 06:52

Zel, the good thing is: Otheres do read your posts too and find them always helpful and insightful. So please continue your postings- even if you have to fead the troll to do so.
Kind Regards

Roland


Sanity Check: Failure (Fluffy)
More system is not the answer...
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