[Zelandakh]

I needed to split this post in four as it is apparently too large...

 32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

So let’s try and analyse what we win and what we lose playing Puppet Stayman.

It is good to analyse such things but if you do then you need to do it properly, ideally from practical use and evaluation.

 32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

Over a 1NT Opening Bid
Advantages:
1. You can include 5-card majors within your 1NT range
2. You can have the best of both worlds by playing 2♣ as Standard Stayman and 3♣ as Puppet Stayman. The downside with this approach is that you need 10-12 HCP to initiate Puppet Stayman.

I think you need to separate out using 2♣ as puppet from using 3♣ as puppet. These are different animals and come with differing pros and cons.

 32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

Disadvantages:
1. You lose Garbage Stayman

This is completely untrue for 3♣ Puppet and a misrepresentation for 2♣ Puppet. In the latter case your Exit Stayman hands change from 3+♥, 3+♠, 4+♦ to 2+♥, 2+♠, 5+♦ and you also gain the ability to (usually) get out in 2♦. This tends to be pretty much a wash overall. What you do lose with 2♣ Puppet is Crawling Stayman - perhaps this is what you meant though since Garbage Stayman is a term that means different things to different people (it means the same as Exit Stayman to me).

 32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

2. Brain drain in the follow up bidding

Why is the follow-up bidding harder after Puppet than normal Stayman?

 32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

3. The auction is now forced to 2NT, so you need at least invitational values (8-9 HCP)

This I did not understand at all. You need invitational values for normal Stayman too unless you are bidding it on an Exit Stayman or Crawling Stayman hand.

 32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

4. Opponents can double artificial bids during the bidding for lead direction or even sacrifice

This one is fair - there are usually more bids to double in a Puppet sequence than with regular Stayman.

 32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

5. When playing 1NT-3♣ as Puppet Stayman, you lose an alternate meaning for the 3♣ bid

Clearly true! This is no problem so long as you do not lose the ability to show any hand types though.

[Zelandakh]

...continued...

 32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

Over a 2NT Opening Bid:
Advantages:
1. You can include 5-card majors within your 2NT range
2. Play in a 5-3 major fit instead of 3NT
3. It is easier to bid a slam in the majors

I am not at all sure about the last of these. I do not recall it being easier to bid a major suit slam after using Puppet rather than normal Stayman.

 32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

4. Over the sequence over 2N-3♣-3♦-4♣ use RKC with double agreement

This would appear to be highly dependant on which version of Puppet you are playing. It is not universal for 3♦ to prmoise a 4 card major here.

 32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

5. Forbids opening 2NT with 5-4 in the majors

Forbids is too strong a word. It is simply a bad idea most of the time whichever version of Stayman you are using.

[Zelandakh]

...continued...

 32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

Disadvantages:
1. You lose Garbage Stayman

Not a big loss after a 2NT opening for sure! See comments from the 1NT section as to why this is untrue.

 32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

2. Brain drain in the follow up bidding

I am still not sure why Puppet follow-ups are harder to remember than Smolen and co.

 32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

3. Forgetting that you are playing Puppet Stayman and not Standard Stayman

Or vice versa. The only time I have forgotten this I thought it was Puppet when our agreement was normal.

 32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

4. More information disclosed to the opponents

Also untrue. There are many auctions where Puppet reveals less to the opponents than regular Stayman.

 32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

5. Opponents can double artificial bids during the bidding for lead direction or even sacrifice

Yep, there are more artificial calls in a typical Puppet auction.

 32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

6. Responder with 5♠+3♥, the partnership may have a 5-3 ♠ or ♥ fit. If you play Puppet the 5-3 ♠ fit is lost. If you transfer to ♠ then the 5-3 ♥ fit is lost. You cannot butter your bread on both sides. The odds say that it is better to transfer into the ♠ suit.

This depends on your style for transfer bids. Many play a transfer as game-forcing after a 2NT opening and now you can assign a specific super-accept to the 5-2 hand type. 2NT - 3♥ - 3NT = 2533 makes for a very good hand description.

 32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

7. You cannot show a 5♠+4♥ holding effectively (with 4♠+5♥ it is easy to transfer into the ♥ suit and then bid the ♠ suit). Niemeijer can fix this problem but you run the risk of forgetting what the bids mean (2NT-3NT = Niemeijer, 5♠+4♥). To play in 3NT you must first bid 3♣. Others use 3♠ to play in 3NT but this also comes at a cost. 3♠ either MSS or a transfer to ♣ is lost. Others play 3♠ = 5♠+4♥ but again at a cost. The strong hand is exposed on the table when in ♠.

This is absolutely rubbish. There are several Puppet schemes around that cope with 5♠4♥ hands. I specifically mentioned how easy this was in a previous post. For the record I play the version where a 3♦ response shows 3-4 spades and/or 4 hearts. Now a 4♦ rebid by Responder can handle the 5♠4♥ hand. If Opener rebids 3NT it shows <3 spades and <4 hearts so the 5♠4♥ hand knows there is no fit and can pass.

 32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

8. The purpose of Puppet Stayman is to find 5-3 major fits when opener has opened 2NT with a 5-card major. Thus, responder will use puppet Stayman more often than he would use regular Stayman, since responder will use it on some hands with just a 3-card major as well as on hands with a 4-card major. This means that information about opener's hand will be revealed to the opponents more often. (If responder never uses puppet Stayman without a 4-card major, then I don't see the point of playing Puppet).

One point of that approach would be that a 5-4 fit might lead to a slam but that is a side point. If your 2NT opening is freer as to shape then any time you simply bid 3NT then less is known about Opener's hand. Similarly, compare the auctions 2NT - 3♣(Stayman); 3♥ - 3NT with 2NT - 3♣(Puppet); 3♦ - 3♥; 3NT. In the former we know Opener has 4 hearts and <4 spades and that Responder has 4 spades and no slam interest. In the latter we know that Opener does not have 4 spades or 5 hearts and that Responder does not have slam interest opposite that (but may have had opposite 4 spades). More bids does not necessarily mean more information is given to the defence abotu Declarer's hand.

[Zelandakh]

...continued...

 32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

9. How often do you and your partner open 2NT with a 5-card major? If the answer is only if the 5-card major is so good that no 3-card support will help it or only if the 5-card major is so bad that you need 3 honors to make it worthwhile to play as a trump suit, then you don't need puppet Stayman at all.

All the time. For me it is standard to treat any 5332 hand as balanced. This obviously has beneficial effects elsewhere.

 32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

10. How often do you open 2NT when you are precisely 4-4 in the majors? If the answer is as often as possible, then the more common variation of Stayman is far more useful.

All the time. For me it is standard to treat 44(32) as balanced. But why is normal Stayman more useful here?

 32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

11. The loss of Smolen

...which can be covered in other ways.

 32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

12. How do you show minor suit hands after: 2NT-3♣-3♦-?

Well since you ask... 3♥ asks Opener if they hold 4 spades or not and then a following 4m is natural. A 4M rebid over 3♦ shows a hand with 5-4 in the minors. 5-5 hands are handled elsewhere with a 3♠ response to 2NT.

 32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

13. The 5-3 major fit is not that important at IMPS. The major suit fit most often produces 10 tricks versus 9 in NT. 1 IMP is lost. 4M plus 3NT both making 10 tricks is a push. 3NT making versus 4M down 1 is a huge gain.

It is very important on hands where we can make 4M but not 3NT. Playing Puppet allows us to make more accurate judgements on whether 3NT or 4M will be better.

 32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

Chris Ryall’s website on the plusses and minuses of playing Puppet Stayman should be read by all. Click here

Chris Ryall's site contains a lot of very good information on a variety of topics.

 32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

I have seen and read enough on Puppet Stayman.

Topic closed.

Glad you think you have all the answers here. Nonetheless I would suggest that before you close the door in your mind that you try out some of the options to see how they affect the overall system. One of the biggest advantages of Puppet over 1NT is that it allows you to make your 1M openings unbalanced if desired, or at the very least avoids certain rebid problems inherent in system design. This alone is a big win. You only need to come out something close to even on the Stayman hands to be ahead overall. It is wrong to look at Puppet in isolation while ignoring the bigger picture.

[kenrexford]

 32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

So let's try and analyse what we win and what we lose playing Puppet Stayman.

Over a 2NT Opening Bid:
Advantages:
1. You can include 5-card majors within your 2NT range
2. Play in a 5-3 major fit instead of 3NT
3. It is easier to bid a slam in the majors
4. Over the sequence over 2N-3♣-3♦-4♣ use RKC with double agreement
5. Forbids opening 2NT with 5-4 in the majors

Disadvantages:
1. You lose Garbage Stayman Not necessarily. Playing Puppet, you might be able to bid 3♣ with something like 2-3-5-3, for instance.
2. Brain drain in the follow up bidding
3. Forgetting that you are playing Puppet Stayman and not Standard Stayman
4. More information disclosed to the opponents
5. Opponents can double artificial bids during the bidding for lead direction or even sacrifice
6. Responder with 5♠+3♥, the partnership may have a 5-3 ♠ or ♥ fit. If you play Puppet the 5-3 ♠ fit is lost. If you transfer to ♠ then the 5-3 ♥ fit is lost. You cannot butter your bread on both sides. The odds say that it is better to transfer into the ♠ suit. This assumes that you are playing regular Puppet and not the Muppet version that solves this problem.
7. You cannot show a 5♠+4♥ holding effectively (with 4♠+5♥ it is easy to transfer into the ♥ suit and then bid the ♠ suit). Niemeijer can fix this problem but you run the risk of forgetting what the bids mean (2NT-3NT = Niemeijer, 5♠+4♥). To play in 3NT you must first bid 3♣. Others use 3♠ to play in 3NT but this also comes at a cost. 3♠ either MSS or a transfer to ♣ is lost. Others play 3♠ = 5♠+4♥ but again at a cost. The strong hand is exposed on the table when in ♠. Again, you are missing a simple solution. With basic Muppet, you bid 3♣ with 5♠/4♥. Partner bids 3NT with 5♥, 3♥ then with no 4-card major; this allows Responder to bid 3♠ after 3♥ as 5♠/4♥. Thus, you do not forfeit 2NT-3NT as natural or 2NT-3♠ as minor(s).
8. The purpose of Puppet Stayman is to find 5-3 major fits when opener has opened 2NT with a 5-card major. Thus, responder will use puppet Stayman more often than he would use regular Stayman, since responder will use it on some hands with just a 3-card major as well as on hands with a 4-card major. This means that information about opener's hand will be revealed to the opponents more often. (If responder never uses puppet Stayman without a 4-card major, then I don't see the point of playing Puppet).
9. How often do you and your partner open 2NT with a 5-card major? If the answer is only if the 5-card major is so good that no 3-card support will help it or only if the 5-card major is so bad that you need 3 honors to make it worthwhile to play as a trump suit, then you don't need puppet Stayman at all.
10. How often do you open 2NT when you are precisely 4-4 in the majors? If the answer is as often as possible, then the more common variation of Stayman is far more useful.
11. The loss of Smolen
12. How do you show minor suit hands after: 2NT-3♣-3♦-?
13. The 5-3 major fit is not that important at IMPS. The major suit fit most often produces 10 tricks versus 9 in NT. 1 IMP is lost. 4M plus 3NT both making 10 tricks is a push. 3NT making versus 4M down 1 is a huge gain.

Chris Ryall's website on the plusses and minuses of playing Puppet Stayman should be read by all. Click here

I have seen and read enough on Puppet Stayman.

Topic closed.

Thank you.

You seem to be suffering from a lack of knowledge of variations to Puppet Stayman that solve many of your problems with regular Puppet Stayman. You are right about PS, but that explains MS or MMS, not just S.

[bluecalm]

Quote

1. You can include 5-card majors within your 2NT range

If I play strong 2NT I also include 5M-3-3-2 there I just don't bother to find 5-3 fit.

Quote

3. It is easier to bid a slam in the majors

Why would it be ?

Quote

4. Over the sequence over 2N-3♣-3♦-4♣ use RKC with double agreement

How is that a bonus ?
With regular stayman you could play that 3NT is both majors and then you could RKC, or you could play 4C is both majors and 3NT is 5spades or w/e if you are really into finding those 5-3 fits.

Quote

5. Forbids opening 2NT with 5-4 in the majors

How is that a bonus ? And why would puppet forbid that while regular stayman wouldn't ?

Quote

2. Brain drain in the follow up bidding
3. Forgetting that you are playing Puppet Stayman and not Standard Stayman

Really ? I mean puppet stayman isn't that complicated I dont like it, but Brain drain ? Forgetting ? Seriously ?

Quote

6. Responder with 5♠+3♥, the partnership may have a 5-3 ♠ or ♥ fit. If you play Puppet the 5-3 ♠ fit is lost. If you transfer to ♠ then the 5-3 ♥ fit is lost. You cannot butter your bread on both sides. The odds say that it is better to transfer into the ♠ suit.

How is that disadvantage of puppet ? You re not forced to use it..

Quote

12. How do you show minor suit hands after: 2NT-3♣-3♦-?

You don't bid puppet with both minors ? and with 4M-5m you try to find major fit and then if you are not successful you bid minor suit ?

This analysis is very bad, I mean, how about trying to find real wins/loses instead of fabricating non-reasons for either + and - side ?

[mgoetze]

 32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

I have seen and read enough on Puppet Stayman.

Topic closed.

I extend my previous offer once again:

 mgoetze, on 2012-February-27, 12:30, said:

Anyone care to perform the following sim:

32519 starts a thread on system
A knowledgable poster writes an answer

Identify the frequency with which

1. 32519 listens to any advice which does not agree with his foregone conclusions
2. Anyone learns anything

[kenrexford]

 mgoetze, on 2012-March-16, 09:10, said:

I extend my previous offer once again:

I am not usually one to agree that easily, but this sure was funny as to this discussion. The entire listing of rationales was OK, some good and some questionable. Some of the rebuttal analyses have been dubious at some points.


But, when you type in "Topic Closed," you are surely asking for it. LOL

[Vampyr]

 32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

Disadvantages:
1. You lose Garbage Stayman
2. Brain drain in the follow up bidding
3. The auction is now forced to 2NT, so you need at least invitational values (8-9 HCP)
4. Opponents can double artificial bids during the bidding for lead direction or even sacrifice
5. When playing 1NT-3♣ as Puppet Stayman, you lose an alternate meaning for the 3♣ bid

This is an inaccurate mish-mash. 1, 2(?) and 3 apply only to 2♣ Puppet Stayman, and 5 only to 3♣ Puppet Stayman. So you can never suffer all of these disadvantages at once.

[Statto]

 32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

Over a 1NT Opening Bid
Disadvantages:
3. The auction is now forced to 2NT, so you need at least invitational values (8-9 HCP)
5. When playing 1NT-3♣ as Puppet Stayman, you lose an alternate meaning for the 3♣ bid

These are mutually exclusive.

Quote

Over a 2NT Opening Bid:
Disadvantages:
2. Brain drain in the follow up bidding
3. Forgetting that you are playing Puppet Stayman and not Standard Stayman

I don't consider these valid disadvantages if you know what you're doing.

Quote

4. More information disclosed to the opponents
8. The purpose of Puppet Stayman is to find 5-3 major fits when opener has opened 2NT with a 5-card major. Thus, responder will use puppet Stayman more often than he would use regular Stayman, since responder will use it on some hands with just a 3-card major as well as on hands with a 4-card major. This means that information about opener's hand will be revealed to the opponents more often.

Don't these amount to the same thing?

Quote

(If responder never uses puppet Stayman without a 4-card major, then I don't see the point of playing Puppet).

4-3 in the majors?

Quote

12. How do you show minor suit hands after: 2NT-3♣-3♦-?

By bidding your minor?

Quote

13. The 5-3 major fit is not that important at IMPS. The major suit fit most often produces 10 tricks versus 9 in NT. 1 IMP is lost. 4M plus 3NT both making 10 tricks is a push. 3NT making versus 4M down 1 is a huge gain.

What about when 4M makes and 3NT goes off due to lack of adequate stops?

Edit: did not see next page of responses, sorry if duplicated what others have said.

This post has been edited by Statto: 2012-March-16, 23:53

[Statto]

 Zelandakh, on 2012-March-16, 08:53, said:

 32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

3. The auction is now forced to 2NT, so you need at least invitational values (8-9 HCP)

This I did not understand at all. You need invitational values for normal Stayman too unless you are bidding it on an Exit Stayman or Crawling Stayman hand.

I think this means if you're weak with 5-4 in the majors you can't check for a 4-4 fit before signing off in the 5 card major (if you play this as NF, rather than invitational).

[32519]

This thread has received a lot of emotional feedback defending Puppet Stayman, probably from people who use it. All the negatives listed on Chris Ryall's website posed the question, “Is Puppet Stayman really worth the effort?”

Maybe I’m wrong, but these forums are here for less experienced players to learn from the more experienced ones. I am now asking these more experienced players to compile a comprehensive convincing list of advantages “Why anyone should switch to Puppet Stayman?” I will place the first one. Kindly add the rest:

Advantages of playing Puppet Stayman: Over 1NT
1. Can include a 5-card major suit holding within your 1NT range.
2.
3.
4.

Advantages of playing Puppet Stayman: Over 2NT
1. Can include a 5-card major suit holding within your 1NT range
2.
3.
4.

I will be the first to apologise if the list of advantages are enough, therein not requiring a rethink of Puppet Stayman

[gwnn]

 32519, on 2012-March-17, 01:12, said:

I will place the first one. Kindly add the rest:

Maybe kindly read the f**** thread?

[Quantumcat]

My two cents.

 32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

Over a 1NT Opening Bid
Advantages:
1. You can include 5-card majors within your 1NT range

Over a 2NT Opening Bid:
Advantages:
1. You can include 5-card majors within your 2NT range

It is standard to include all balanced hands in NT openings even if you don't use puppet stayman.

 32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

3. Forgetting that you are playing Puppet Stayman and not Standard Stayman

I would as soon forget I was playing Puppet Stayman instead of Regular Stayman as forget I was playing Keycard Blackwood and not regular Blackwood.

 32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

4. More information disclosed to the opponents

Exactly the same amount as regular Stayman - in fact less, if the auction goes 2NT 3♣ 3♦ 3NT - they don;t know which 4-card major opener has, whereas 2NT 3♣ 3♥ 3NT tells them explicitly.

 32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

6. Responder with 5♠+3♥, the partnership may have a 5-3 ♠ or ♥ fit. If you play Puppet the 5-3 ♠ fit is lost. If you transfer to ♠ then the 5-3 ♥ fit is lost. You cannot butter your bread on both sides. The odds say that it is better to transfer into the ♠ suit.

And common sense too - anytime you have two fits, better to play in the weaker hand's fit. The rationale being they have fewer entries and once it is set up it might be stranded. While if it is trumps, the small cards will always take tricks. This is the same reason that with a yarborough and a five card major opposite a 1NT opening, you always transfer to the suit. In 1NT that suit would be useless.

 32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

7. You cannot show a 5♠+4♥ holding effectively (with 4♠+5♥ it is easy to transfer into the ♥ suit and then bid the ♠ suit).

This is ALWAYS a problem - nothing whatsoever to do with Puppet Stayman.

 32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

8. The purpose of Puppet Stayman is to find 5-3 major fits when opener has opened 2NT with a 5-card major. Thus, responder will use puppet Stayman more often than he would use regular Stayman, since responder will use it on some hands with just a 3-card major as well as on hands with a 4-card major. This means that information about opener's hand will be revealed to the opponents more often. (If responder never uses puppet Stayman without a 4-card major, then I don't see the point of playing Puppet).

Actually, LESS information is transferred - using it more often means the opponents are less likely to know what's going on. The old adage of always leading a major against 2NT-3NT or 1NT-3NT because responder failed to use stayman is lost - responder could equally well use stayman whether he has his own major or not! Also, the 3♦ bid showing a four-card major doesn't disclose which it is, so less information is given to the opponents than regular stayman.

 32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

9. How often do you and your partner open 2NT with a 5-card major? If the answer is only if the 5-card major is so good that no 3-card support will help it or only if the 5-card major is so bad that you need 3 honors to make it worthwhile to play as a trump suit, then you don't need puppet Stayman at all.

It is standard to always open 1NT or 2NT with a balanced hand and the right point-count - if you don't you are living in the (long-distant) past.

 32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

10. How often do you open 2NT when you are precisely 4-4 in the majors? If the answer is as often as possible, then the more common variation of Stayman is far more useful.

Again, whenever you have a balanced hand!

 32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

12. How do you show minor suit hands after: 2NT-3♣-3♦-?

Easy - bid your minor. That usually shows slam interest with a long minor suit. Opener can reject the slam invite with 4NT. More importantly, is after 2NT 3♣ 3NT (no major). The solution? Play Muppet Stayman, where the 3♥ and 3NT bids are switched. Then 3♠ after 3♥ is minor suit stayman.

 32519, on 2012-March-16, 07:49, said:

13. The 5-3 major fit is not that important at IMPS. The major suit fit most often produces 10 tricks versus 9 in NT. 1 IMP is lost. 4M plus 3NT both making 10 tricks is a push. 3NT making versus 4M down 1 is a huge gain.

Actually, you only want to play in 3NT with a major suit fit when you have an excess of high-card points (27-30 for 3NT instead of 4-major, 34 - 37 for 6NT instead of 6-major - with 31-33 and a major fit, you'd usually try for 6-major). In this situation, you are often making the same number of tricks in NT as the major, as well as having safety when the suit splits badly (you should have enough high cards outside of the major to find nine tricks). When you don't have an excess of high cards, it is better to play in the major, for safety against them finding the killer lead, or any of the other three suits splitting badly.

The most useful time to have Puppet Stayman in your arsenal is when you want to overcall 2NT over 2♥ but you have five spades and are worried they might be lost, whereas if you overcall 2♠ you don;t get across your shape and strength. Perfect solution - play Puppet Stayman over natural 2NT overcalls, then you never need worry about losing that 5-card major!

[MrAce]

I nominate this thread as "most quotes used thread" in all times

[mgoetze]

Actually Erin, you can show both 5♠4♥ and 4♠5♥ hands nicely by using Smolen after Regular Stayman.

[campboy]

 Quantumcat, on 2012-March-19, 00:31, said:

Actually, LESS information is transferred - using it more often means the opponents are less likely to know what's going on. The old adage of always leading a major against 2NT-3NT or 1NT-3NT because responder failed to use stayman is lost - responder could equally well use stayman whether he has his own major or not! Also, the 3♦ bid showing a four-card major doesn't disclose which it is, so less information is given to the opponents than regular stayman.

That argument is flawed. If the auction starts 2NT - 3♣ - 3♦ using puppet then either responder is going to enquire further or he would not have bid (4-card) Stayman if he wasn't playing puppet. In the former case oppo will find out which major opener has anyway; in the latter case puppet has given away information about opener's hand.

[32519]

One of our regular posters gives the thumbs down on Puppet Stayman in this thread (post number 2).

[aguahombre]

Another poster supplies a very good alternative to Puppet and the continuations after a 2NT opening here:

 mikeh, on 2011-November-10, 11:05, said:

How about this scheme:

3♣ stayman, responses as follows:

3♦: no 4 card major, no 5 card ♥ suit, may have 5♠
3♥: 4 hearts, may have 4♠
3♠: 4♠, denies 4♥
3N: 5♥

Over 3♦, responder bids 3♥ with all non-smolen hands, and bids 3♠ with 4♠ and longer hearts, 3N with 4♥s and longer spades, non-forcing, and 4♥ with 4♥ and longer spades, unwilling to play 3N (too strong or too shapely).

Over 3♥, which may have spades as well as hearts, responder bids 3♠ to puppet to 3N, denying spades, and either 3N or 4N or 5N with 4 spades...3N to pass or correct, 4N as invitational, p/c and 5n as forcing with 4♠.

Over the 3N response to 3♣, 4♦ by responder transfers to hearts.

This seems to cover all of the relevant bases and allows one to use puppet as well as smolen while (usually) getting the strong hand as declarer.

[glen]

 aguahombre, on 2012-March-24, 09:35, said:

Another poster supplies a very good alternative to Puppet and the continuations after a 2NT opening here: ...

See note 14 on this 2007 Bermuda Bowl cc (Frukacz was on Consus Red team that lost yesterday in the Vandy):

frukacz-klimowicz.pdf