[blackshoe]

2♣ is already way too busy a bid, IMO.

Neither 2/1 nor Standard American specify a particular response structure to 2♣ as "standard". Particularly since, like political parties in France, there are as many "definitions" of these systems as there are people playing them. That said, I'll grant that 2♥ "double negative" is fairly common among 2/1 players. What if I have a different idea how to respond to 2♣, one that's not compatible with your "stick the balanced 20-21 in there too" idea? Now I either have to abandon my preferred responses, or find another way to show the 20-21 hand. And as Zel says, there can be memory problems (although that's true of just about any setup).

For the record, I don't play Puppet Stayman. With those partners for whom basic Stayman is complicated enough (I seem to have quite a few of those) I play that. With those willing to take on a bit more (currently, unfortunately, none) I play Romex Stayman (over 2NT). If I'm bidding 1NT with a five card major, I just rebid as if it were four. Over 2NT, rebids after Romex Stayman will uncover the 5-3 fit, if there is one.

Opener's rebids after responder's 3♣ Romex Stayman:

3NT: 4-4 in the majors
3♠: 5 spades
3♥: 4 or 5 hearts (now 3♠ asks which it is)
3♦: any other holding, so fewer than 4 hearts, and fewer than 5 spades (now 3♥ asks if opener has 4 spades).

A Romex NT ladder:

12-16 HCP: open 1minor (usually), rebid 1NT
17-18 HCP: open 1minor (usually), rebid 2NT
19-20 HCP: open 1NT (artificial, F), rebid 2NT
21-22 HCP: open 2♦ (artificial, F), rebid 2NT
23-24 HCP: open 2♣ (artificial, F), rebid 2NT
25-26 HCP: open 2NT (natural, FG or — very rarely — 4m)
27-28 HCP: open 2♦, jump in NT
29-30 HCP: open 2♣, jump in NT

In the current "two card" version of Romex {at MPs, play "Romex" when vul, "Romex Forcing Club (RFC)" (basically a Precision variant) when not vul — at IMPs play RFC only at favorable} there are two ladders:

Romex:
12-16 HCP: open 1minor (usually), rebid 1NT
17-18 HCP: open 1minor (usually), rebid 2NT
19-20 HCP: open 1NT (artificial, F), rebid 2NT
21-22 HCP: open 2♦ (artificial, F), rebid 2NT
23-24 HCP: open 2♣ (artificial, F), rebid 2NT
25-26 HCP: open 2♣, rebid 2♥ (Kokish Relay)
27-28 HCP: open 2♦, jump in NT
29-30 HCP: open 2♣, jump in NT

RFC:
10-12 HCP: open 1NT (no five card majors here)
13-16 HCP: open 1♦ (usually), rebid 1NT
17-20 HCP: open 1♣, rebid 1NT (modified Stayman here, so that opener can show whether minimum (17-18) or maximum (19-20)
21-22 HCP: open 2♦ (artificial, F), rebid 2NT
23-24 HCP: open 1♣ (artificial, F), rebid 2NT
25-26 HCP: open 1♣, rebid 2♥ (Kokish Relay)
27-28 HCP: open 2♦, jump in NT

I'm not saying any of these is somehow "best", just that they work for me - or would if I could find a partner willing to play Romex.

[awm]

While I don't think much of Romex as a system (way too many strong bids to cater to way too few a percentage of hands), Romex Stayman is an excellent convention, way better than Puppet. It works just as well opposite a standard 2NT opening.

[nige1]

Jasmine ♣ keeps notrump bidding fairly low. with narrow overlapping ranges. With flat hands:
11-14 1♦/1♥/1♠ rebid notrump if convenient.
14-16 1N (This means "about 15 HCP")
16-18 1♣-1♦-1N (1♣ = ART Strong, 1♦ = ART neg).
18-20 1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠ 1N (1♥ = ART modified Kokish 1♠ = ART).
20-22 1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠-2♣-2♦-2N (ART 2♣, 2♦ = ART)
22-24 1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠-2♣-2♦-2♥-2♠-2N (2♥ = ART modified Kokish again)
24-26 1♣-1♦-2N.
26-28 1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠-2N.
.

All quite natural to us

[mike777]

does anyone notice there is no puppet in today/s puppet stayman?

[nige1]

mike777, on 2012-April-25, 19:46, said:

does anyone notice there is no puppet in today/s puppet stayman?

I suppose that Gladiator, which I sometimes play, is true puppet Stayman.

[blackshoe]

mike777, on 2012-April-25, 19:46, said:

does anyone notice there is no puppet in today/s puppet stayman?

Jeff Rubens did. He mentioned it in his editorial in the May Bridge World.

[the hog]

32519, on 2012-March-15, 09:06, said:

If you allow 5-card majors in your 1NT 15-17 HCP range, what does one do in this bidding sequence?

---

You have a good 5-card ♥ suit.
Partner is asking you to transfer into your worst suit. Do you pass 2♥ or do you complete the transfer?

Passing 2H is absurd of course. You complete the transfer.

[blackshoe]

awm, on 2012-April-25, 19:24, said:

While I don't think much of Romex as a system (way too many strong bids to cater to way too few a percentage of hands), Romex Stayman is an excellent convention, way better than Puppet. It works just as well opposite a standard 2NT opening.

Romex is, I think, more appropriate to IMP scoring than to MPs. In the former, games and slams are more important than part scores, in the later, it's the part score hands that are more important. Or so it seems to me. Romex is designed to bid games and slams well. Or so said Dr. Rosenkranz, anyway.

I agree that Romex Stayman works well in a standard (or 2/1) context. Now if I could get just one of my partners to agree...

[lowerline]

32519, on 2012-March-15, 09:06, said:

If you allow 5-card majors in your 1NT 15-17 HCP range, what does one do in this bidding sequence?

---

You have a good 5-card ♥ suit.
Partner is asking you to transfer into your worst suit. Do you pass 2♥ or do you complete the transfer?

I would have opened that hand 1♥. I do not consider this a question of system but a question of hand evaluation.
1♥ all pass or does partner respond with his lousy hand? If he does respond, I blame him if we go down in 2nt.

Steven

[Cthulhu D]

manudude03, on 2012-April-25, 09:32, said:

Not to mention that you could easily be in the wrong strain after 2C-2H-P. Say responder has a very weak hand with 6 spades, it's not hard to come up with hands where you make 4S and are struggling to make 2H (Qxxxxx x xxx xxx opposite AKx AJ9xx Axx Ax)

This is why I like Barmar's playing 2H, 2S etc as double negative transfers.

[32519]

All you Puppet lovers, your convention is safe! The USA controlling bodies absolutely love it! In the USBC Round of 16, Segment 1 of 8, in 15 boards Puppet Stayman over 1NT or 2NT came up no less than 5 times! One third of the hands played: numbers 1, 2, 6, 10 and 12. On board 2 the Milner Team was lucky to make 10 tricks in 4NT after a Puppet sequence. The limit of the hand is 9 tricks on a small ♥ lead.

Another USA favourite was dealt on board 11, none other than Flannery.

On board 4, the DON'T convention worked out very well against a 1NT opener.

Eat your hearts out!

[Vampyr]

32519, on 2012-April-29, 11:11, said:

All you Puppet lovers, your convention is safe! The USA controlling bodies absolutely love it!

I don't understand what you mean by "controlling bodies". No one in an American, or any other, competition is forced to play Puppet Stayman. Not as far as I know, anyway.

[glen]

Vampyr, on 2012-April-29, 18:30, said:

I don't understand what you mean by "controlling bodies". No one in an American, or any other, competition is forced to play Puppet Stayman. Not as far as I know, anyway.

he was talking about the people who pull the strings

[Vampyr]

glen, on 2012-April-29, 18:34, said:

he was talking about the people who pull the strings

I know. But I don't see how these people have any influence on players' decisions to play Puppet Stayman.

[32519]

Vampyr, on 2012-April-29, 18:30, said:

I don't understand what you mean by "controlling bodies". No one in an American, or any other, competition is forced to play Puppet Stayman. Not as far as I know, anyway.

Vampyr, on 2012-April-29, 21:16, said:

I know. But I don't see how these people have any influence on players' decisions to play Puppet Stayman.

After witnessing what unfolded last night, I have made a complete U-Turn on my feelings towards Puppet Stayman. If I were a first class player in the USA I would take a different approach towards the conventions included in my bidding agreements. Identify those which the controlling bodies are fond of. As all the hands get pre-dealt, start keeping your own personal records of the conventions which appear more frequently. Then make damn sure you have an excellent version for the particular convention. Two you already know about; Puppet Stayman and Flannery. It matters not how much you hate Flannery. The fact that your controlling bodies love it, you know it will inevitably appear in big tournaments.

The hand records for the Cavendish, Springold, Vanderbilt and US Teams are all available in The Vugraph Project.

[mgoetze]

Nice sig, 32519.

[32519]

The encouraging thing with this hand is this:
The USA controlling bodies mix in enough hands that aren’t easily handled in a Puppet sequence. This one needed a sequence for N/S to signoff in either minor suit. If your Puppet agreement doesn’t have room for this, the only option South has is to pass. 1NT can be defeated on a ♥ lead. A ♦ or ♠ and N/S take 7 tricks off the top.

Here the one team found the ♦ fit making 10 tricks. In the other room 3♣ went down.

In post 137 to this tread, a Puppet sequence went one level too high but still made on a lucky lead.

[campboy]

32519, on 2012-May-01, 02:59, said:

The encouraging thing with this hand is this:
The USA controlling bodies mix in enough hands that aren’t easily handled in a Puppet sequence. This one needed a sequence for N/S to signoff in either minor suit.

I heard they also mix in fluorides. It's all designed to sap our precious bodily fluids conventions.

[32519]

Question:
Can (or does) Gazzilli solve the dilemma of including 5332 hands in either your 1NT or 2NT ranges?

If I read this properly, you always get the 5-card major into the picture. You can safely end the auction on the 2-level when opener and responder are minimum.

Any thoughts?

[32519]

If you remove the 5332 hands from your 1NT or 2NT bids and move them into Gazzilli, you start taking the pressure off your NT bids. The USBC has already demonstrated that there certainly are times when the hand calls for signing off in a minor part score. The bidding space previously consumed by Puppet Stayman has now been freed for other purposes.

Surely this has got to be beneficial for your overall agreements? (See post above).