[aguahombre]

Free, on 2012-March-14, 13:19, said:

I have 3♣ available as a puppet, to show shortness. However I probably wouldn't bid it and just signoff in 3NT, or maybe bid 4NT after which we can find our ♣ fit.

That's another old treatment, which I had forgotten.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Since 3C/3D shows the 5+minor, GF, slammish ... what would 4C or 4D mean ( directly over 2D ) ?

Should/could 4C/4D = Quant w/ 4 card ♣ or ♦ ( to go along with the undisclosed 4 card Major ) ??

And 4NT ( over 2D ) = Quant w/ NO 4 card minor .

[gnasher]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-March-14, 17:08, said:

Since 3C/3D shows the 5+minor, GF, slammish ... what would 4C or 4D mean ( directly over 2D ) ?

Should/could 4C/4D = Quant w/ 4 card ♣ or ♦ ( to go along with the undisclosed 4 card Major ) ??

And 4NT ( over 2D ) = Quant w/ NO 4 card minor .

That, in essence, is Sharples. It's a bit clumsy, but much better than nothing.

You'd need to decide how to bid these hands after 1NT-2♣-2M. One option is to use 1NT-2♣;2M-3OM as the balanced slam try, so that you can keep four of a minor as a splinter.

[Cyberyeti]

I play a weak no trump meaning I don't need Smolen, so these hands (moving 3 points to the N hand so I'm top of my range) would be bid:

1N-2♣
2♦-3♥ (minor suit enquiry without 5m)
3N (max no 5m)-4♣ (4 card suit)

now any bid other than 4N showing 3343 agrees clubs

[JLOGIC]

Heres a suggestion:

1N 2C
2D 4S

Most people would have this undefined, so you don't even need to change your system to deal with this. Assuming 4D and 4H are transfers over 2D, that leaves 4S to how (14)44 slam try.

[gnasher]

JLOGIC, on 2012-March-15, 00:17, said:

Heres a suggestion:

1N 2C
2D 4S

Most people would have this undefined, so you don't even need to change your system to deal with this. Assuming 4D and 4H are transfers over 2D, that leaves 4S to how (14)44 slam try.

Thta's not really a complete solution, though. There are four 4441 patterns, four 4432 patterns and four 4333 patterns. Simple Stayman handles three of those 20 patterns effectively, and the Lall Adjunct adds a further one.

[JLOGIC]

gnasher, on 2012-March-15, 02:08, said:

Thta's not really a complete solution, though. There are four 4441 patterns, four 4432 patterns and four 4333 patterns. Simple Stayman handles three of those 20 patterns effectively, and the Lall Adjunct adds a further one.

Of course. FWIW with 4432 and a 4 card major and a 4 card minor, I bid 3C puppet then if I show my 4 card major, then if partner bids 3N I bid 4 of my minor which shows both of my 4 card suits and 32 in the other suits. With 4333 normal quantitative auctions can handle this. With 44 in the minors I can bid 1N p 4S, with 4-4 in the majors stayman then 4N works fine.

Of course there are many systems that can handle 4432 or 4441 below game if you want to play those, I was just trying to point out an almost "free" way of dealing with 4441 and a slam try after stayman.

[straube]

awm, on 2012-March-13, 22:17, said:

Maybe:

1NT - 3♥!(1)
3NT(2) - 4NT(3)
5♣(4) - 6♣(5)

(1) Shortness in spades, roughly three-suited
(2) No four hearts, probably as good as anything opposite a min GF
(3) Quantitative
(4) Given the soft spade cards, a minor fit will be our best chance at slam
(5) Okay

It's easy to imagine a different auction if opener holds for example ♠Kxx, since he knows the shortage.

Our auction is similar.

1N-3S
3N-4D
6C


3S promises 4 cards in each suit and 4D is a generic slam try despite some wasted spade values. Opener's hand could be worse.

[gnasher]

JLOGIC, on 2012-March-15, 02:23, said:

Of course. FWIW with 4432 and a 4 card major and a 4 card minor, I bid 3C puppet then if I show my 4 card major, then if partner bids 3N I bid 4 of my minor which shows both of my 4 card suits and 32 in the other suits. With 4333 normal quantitative auctions can handle this. With 44 in the minors I can bid 1N p 4S, with 4-4 in the majors stayman then 4N works fine.

I think it's worthwhile to be able to show the 4333 shapes before opener makes his decision. If he has four-card support and a doubleton, that's often worth an extra trick.

What do you use 1NT-3♣;3♦-4x as?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

JLOGIC, on 2012-March-15, 00:17, said:

Heres a suggestion:

1N 2C
2D 4S

Most people would have this undefined, so you don't even need to change your system to deal with this. Assuming 4D and 4H are transfers over 2D, that leaves 4S to how (14)44 slam try.

Do you really need to use 4D and 4H as Transfers ( directly over 2D ):
1NT - 2C
2D - 3H/3S ( ostensibly Smolen showing 5M/4oM )
3NT - 4D!/4H! ( now are delayed-Transfers showing 6M/4oM )

That way it frees-up 4D as Quant, w/4 ♦ ( posts # 22 and 23 )... directly over 2D.
Likewise 4C = Quant w/ 4 ♣ ( and may have 4 ♦ as well ) giving up that dreaded Gerber.

[aguahombre]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-March-15, 08:21, said:

Do you really need to use 4D and 4H as Transfers ( directly over 2D ):
1NT - 2C
2D - 3H/3S ( ostensibly Smolen showing 5M/4oM )
3NT - 4D!/4H! ( now are delayed-Transfers showing 6M/4oM )

That way it frees-up 4D as Quant, w/4 ♦ ( posts # 22 and 23 )... directly over 2D.
Likewise 4C = Quant w/ 4 ♣ ( and may have 4 ♦ as well ) giving up that dreaded Gerber.

Depends on who "you" is. We need the direct "delay-texas" with weaker hands...ones which merely want to sign off in game. The Smolen route, and eventual Texas is used with stronger hands which were interested in slam (probably no longer interested when opener denies 3-card support...since 4C was still available).

[Zelandakh]

Some options for 1NT - 2♣; 2♦ - 4m (and some for 4M) off the top of my head:-

1. 4♣ = 6♥5♠; 4♦ = 6♠5♥
2. 4♣ = 0436 cog; 4♦ = 0463 cog (then 4M for 40(36))
3. slam try in the minor - somehow different from bidding 3m followed by 4m
4. Minorwood
5. any very strong 3-suited hands which do not fit elsewhere
6. a quantitative 4NT bid with a 5 card minor: 4♣ = (32)35; 4♦ = (32)53; 4M = 33(25)
7. 4♣ = very strong 3-suited hand; 4♦ = 6♥4♠; 4♥ = 6♠4♥
8. 4♣ = 5♥5♠; 4♦ = 6♥4♠; 4♥ = 6♠4♥

I have no doubt there are many many more possibilities.

[JLOGIC]

gnasher, on 2012-March-15, 04:33, said:

I think it's worthwhile to be able to show the 4333 shapes before opener makes his decision. If he has four-card support and a doubleton, that's often worth an extra trick.

What do you use 1NT-3♣;3♦-4x as?

5332 with 5m

[JLOGIC]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-March-15, 08:21, said:

Do you really need to use 4D and 4H as Transfers ( directly over 2D ):
1NT - 2C
2D - 3H/3S ( ostensibly Smolen showing 5M/4oM )
3NT - 4D!/4H! ( now are delayed-Transfers showing 6M/4oM )

That way it frees-up 4D as Quant, w/4 ♦ ( posts # 22 and 23 )... directly over 2D.
Likewise 4C = Quant w/ 4 ♣ ( and may have 4 ♦ as well ) giving up that dreaded Gerber.

I use smolen then 4M as a slam try with 6-4.

[aguahombre]

aguahombre, on 2012-March-15, 08:48, said:

The Smolen route, and eventual Texas is used with stronger hands which were interested in slam..

JLOGIC, on 2012-March-15, 11:15, said:

I use smolen then 4M as a slam try with 6-4.

It should frighten you into rethinking a method upon which we agree.

[gnasher]

JLOGIC, on 2012-March-15, 11:13, said:

5332 with 5m

You only need two bids for those. 1NT-3♣;3♦-4M could be 33(34)

[xxhong]

1N 2C(transfer to D)
2D 2S(kind of balanced)
2N(4+C) 3C(fit)
3N(stop) 4D(RKC)
......

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-March-13, 20:24, said:

( 6NT doesn't make )

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EDIT: It was IMP scoring