[jules101]

I was thinking about these two auctions.

(a) [1♣] 2N (showing lower 2 unbid suits)

and

(b) [1♣] P [1♠] 2N (showing the other 2 suits)



(a) With the first auction I'm happy to wade in with a shapely minimum.


(b) Where both of your oppo have bid, so one has opening+ hand, and the other has 6+ hcp (but is unlimited) then should one have a much better hand to enter the auction in 4th seat?

Or would you just bid 2N there with the same minimum as you would in auction (a)?

What would you recommend as a minimum for 2N in auction (b)?

[ggwhiz]

I like to play a sandwich 1nt here, (alertable) as safer and more flexible.

Rather than showing the unlikely strong balanced hand it shows the other 2 suits with less strength than a takeout double. You can bother them with 5-4 hands in the 10 pt. range and the more shape you have, the less pts. needed. Maybe partner can bother them with their next call.

Strong nt hands can choose to double or pass based on shape (for now) knowing you will get another chance. And also knowing there is little strength left for partner to have.

[aguahombre]

Lots of folks like the NT in sandwich position to be take-out for the other two suits; the only "bother" is that it takes away their ability to play 1NT, and that could be quite an important bother.

[nigel_k]

ggwhiz, on 2012-March-12, 11:18, said:

Strong nt hands can choose to double or pass based on shape (for now) knowing you will get another chance. And also knowing there is little strength left for partner to have.

I much prefer 1NT to be natural in the sandwich position.

Double without suitable shape just doesn't work well because partner can't confidently compete with a four card suit and moderate values, which is what they quite often have. If you pass, you may as well pass throughout because next time it won't be any safer and you'll be at the two level. And plenty of people open and respond on garbage so partner can actually have quite a lot.

It is certainly dangerous to overcall 1NT with a balanced 16 and you can go for a number, but somehow it doesn't seem to happen as often as intuition would suggest. But you are much better positioned to be on the right side of the numerous part score swings and occasional game that might be there.

[aguahombre]

nigel_k, on 2012-March-12, 12:49, said:

I much prefer 1NT to be natural in the sandwich position.

Double without suitable shape just doesn't work well because partner can't confidently compete with a four card suit and moderate values, which is what they quite often have. If you pass, you may as well pass throughout because next time it won't be any safer and you'll be at the two level. And plenty of people open and respond on garbage so partner can actually have quite a lot.

It is certainly dangerous to overcall 1NT with a balanced 16 and you can go for a number, but somehow it doesn't seem to happen as often as intuition would suggest. But you are much better positioned to be on the right side of the numerous part score swings and occasional game that might be there.

Yes. My "Lots of folks...." post above yours did not include us

But, the plus on yours was for the careful wording "prefer 1NT to be natural in the sandwich position". All NT bids in that spot are sandwich NT's; just the same as rebids in a higher suit than the first suit are reverses. The difference is in what they show.

[jules101]

The poster (and her pard!) would play 1N is 4th seat there to be 18-19ish balanced, and 2N shows the other 2-suits.


So getting back to the question asked.....

[aguahombre]

In both OP situations, we apply the same normal attention to vulnerability and would probably bid 2NT with pretty much the same type of hands.

After responder has had a chance to respond 1S, there is good news and bad news. The bad news is that responder has had a chance to get a bid in, so opener at least knows responder has some values. The good news is that it is more likely one of our two suits will meet with a fit from partner.

Seems like a wash.

[Cthulhu D]

nigel_k, on 2012-March-12, 12:49, said:

I much prefer 1NT to be natural in the sandwich position.

[...]

It is certainly dangerous to overcall 1NT with a balanced 16 and you can go for a number, but somehow it doesn't seem to happen as often as intuition would suggest.

Does this change depending on how light the field will open and respond? Playing against myself 1C - 1H could be on a combined 13 count so a natural 1NT is going to make more sense, but against the 'I actually have values for my bid' crowd it's more likely to be an 18+ count and 1NT is much rarer.

[Statto]

I think you need better suits and/or a better hand in case (b). Opps have both shown values and fairly unlimited, but have not yet found a fit, so would be more inclined to find a penalty double. In case (a) responder has not yet bid, so there is greater probability that partner has some values. Also, you make it harder for responder to find a bid at all, thus getting the full pre-emptive value.

aguahombre, on 2012-March-12, 18:07, said:

The good news is that it is more likely one of our two suits will meet with a fit from partner.

I'm not sure it's all good news. If opps don't have a fit, it's more likely we don't have one either.

[aguahombre]

If the opponents have gotten a chance to bid two suits, and I only have three cards total in those two suits, call me wild; but I will take a chance that my preemptive takeout will not meet disaster.