[xx1943]

This poll is related to that I created about black 2-suiters.

Bidding goes 1♠ pass 2♦ pass 3♣.
Does the 3♣ bid shows extra values?

IMO:
In SAYC it shows 16+ for sure.
Can it be minimum in 2/1?
Should discussed with a regular pd.

Cheers

Al

[Free]

xx1943, on Nov 10 2004, 05:44 PM, said:

Does the 3♣ bid shows extra values?

Yes.

[inquiry]

No brainer, 3C shows extra values.

[PriorKnowledge]

oops, answered in wrong question...
Playing 2/1 (not SAYC), regular reverse (1♦ 2♣ 2♥) does not show extras, but high reverse (1♠ 2♦ 3♣) does show extras.

[pclayton]

I think Hardy's version of 2/1 where reverses show shape has been pretty much thrown out by the posters here, and hopefully the rest of the world follows suit.

[PriorKnowledge]

Even when I play SAYC, I play that 1D 2C 2M does not promise extras. Otherwise, your only bids are 2D, 2N, or 3C with a min.

It does not make any sense that 1D 2C 2N is min, but 1D 2C 2H is strong.

[han]

Yes, both extras and shape.

[jillybean]

Are these intended for BIL'ies or expert no brainers?

[pclayton]

PriorKnowledge, on Nov 10 2004, 10:12 AM, said:

Even when I play SAYC, I play that 1D 2C 2M does not promise extras. Otherwise, your only bids are 2D, 2N, or 3C with a min.

It does not make any sense that 1D 2C 2N is min, but 1D 2C 2H is strong.

There is a HUGE difference between 1♦ - 2♣ - 2 of a major and 1♥ - 2♣ - 2♠. Here, I think 2 of a major can be reasonably played as not showing extras.

1♦ - 2♣ - 2 of a major should not be part of this discussion.

[PriorKnowledge]

pclayton, on Nov 10 2004, 03:16 PM, said:

There is a HUGE difference between 1♦ - 2♣ - 2 of a major and 1♥ - 2♣ - 2♠. Here, I think 2 of a major can be reasonably played as not showing extras.

1♦ - 2♣ - 2 of a major should not be part of this discussion.

And I think exactly the opposite. After 1H 2C, opener can always rebid 2H, allowing responder to bid 2S holding 5c/4s.

But after 1D 2C, opener may be stuck. Rebidding 2D with 4d is unacceptable. Rebidding 2N with an unstopped doubleton in a major is unacceptable. So allowing a 2M rebid on a min is needed.

[pclayton]

PriorKnowledge, on Nov 10 2004, 11:35 AM, said:

pclayton, on Nov 10 2004, 03:16 PM, said:

There is a HUGE difference between 1♦ - 2♣ - 2 of a major and 1♥ - 2♣ - 2♠. Here, I think 2 of a major can be reasonably played as not showing extras.

1♦ - 2♣ - 2 of a major should not be part of this discussion.

And I think exactly the opposite. After 1H 2C, opener can always rebid 2H, allowing responder to bid 2S holding 5c/4s.

But after 1D 2C, opener may be stuck. Rebidding 2D with 4d is unacceptable. Rebidding 2N with an unstopped doubleton in a major is unacceptable. So allowing a 2M rebid on a min is needed.

I think we are saying the same thing:

1♦ - 2♣ -2 major = no extras promised.

1♥ -2♣ - 2♠ = extras.

[jtfanclub]

Good to see I disagree with everyone again.

There's only two possibilities here:

1. Partner is looking for STRAIN: he doesn't know if we should be playing in spades, another suit, or no-trump. He knows we have game (or almost have game), and we're very unlikely to have slam.

In that case, it's very important for me to show my clubs. If we have a club fit, 5 clubs may make while 3NT loses the first five tricks when they run a minor. If we have a misfit, this may be what he's looking for to bid 3NT.

2. Partner is looking for LEVEL: he doesn't know if we should be playing at game or slam.

In that case, it's very important for me to show my shape. 5521 is far more powerful than 5332. Across a hand like:

KJx
Axx
AKxx
KQx

7NT is cold across (AQxxx xx x AJxxx) but 6NT won't make across a more balanced hand (AQxxx xxx xx AJx). There's also lots of hands where, knowing your distribution, your partner can find 6 in a black suit where even 3NT wasn't going to make.

So, the question is, do you need extras to bid 3 clubs? I say yes.

But I also say that 5521 IS extras. An entire trick worth of extras over 5332, just as 16 hcp is a trick extra over 12.

But what, you say, if I didn't actually have the points to open? You had

KQxxx
Kx
x
Qxxxx

And you already used your shape to open? Now what do you do?

And the answer is...you don't get into that situation in the first place. You don't have a 12 count and you don't have a convenient rebid. I know it's anathema to some of the people here to pass with a shapely hand, but it's often easier to show those on defense than on offense.

If you can foresee a likely response for which you have no good rebid, and you don't have a full opener, then pass. Then you don't get into those situations.

[junyi_zhu]

jtfanclub, on Nov 10 2004, 09:38 PM, said:

Good to see I disagree with everyone again.

There's only two possibilities here:

1. Partner is looking for STRAIN: he doesn't know if we should be playing in spades, another suit, or no-trump. He knows we have game (or almost have game), and we're very unlikely to have slam.

In that case, it's very important for me to show my clubs. If we have a club fit, 5 clubs may make while 3NT loses the first five tricks when they run a minor. If we have a misfit, this may be what he's looking for to bid 3NT.

2. Partner is looking for LEVEL: he doesn't know if we should be playing at game or slam.

In that case, it's very important for me to show my shape. 5521 is far more powerful than 5332. Across a hand like:

KJx
Axx
AKxx
KQx

7NT is cold across (AQxxx xx x AJxxx) but 6NT won't make across a more balanced hand (AQxxx xxx xx AJx). There's also lots of hands where, knowing your distribution, your partner can find 6 in a black suit where even 3NT wasn't going to make.

So, the question is, do you need extras to bid 3 clubs? I say yes.

But I also say that 5521 IS extras. An entire trick worth of extras over 5332, just as 16 hcp is a trick extra over 12.

But what, you say, if I didn't actually have the points to open? You had

KQxxx
Kx
x
Qxxxx

And you already used your shape to open? Now what do you do?

And the answer is...you don't get into that situation in the first place. You don't have a 12 count and you don't have a convenient rebid. I know it's anathema to some of the people here to pass with a shapely hand, but it's often easier to show those on defense than on offense.

If you can foresee a likely response for which you have no good rebid, and you don't have a full opener, then pass. Then you don't get into those situations.

For AQxxx xx x AJxxx
I believe you should treat it differently.
Over 1S 2H,
your hand is about 6 losers, so I'd bid 3C.
Over 1S 2D,
it's about 7 losers, so I'd bid 2S.
You partner may hold SKx HAKxxx Dxxx CKQx,
or SKx Hxxx DAKxxx CKQx and now you may see the difference.
Partner's 2/1 suit does affect your loser count and hand evaluation for average
cases, because long suits usually means more possible HCP in that suit.

[the hog]

Definitely shows extras.

[pclayton]

In my version of 2/1 (Lawrence), if I make a high reverse, it sets up a game force, even if partner has the sub-minimum 2/1. Without a fit, I can't force this hand to game.

Contrast the subject hand with this: AQxxx, Ax, x, AJxxx. Now I am comfortable with a 1♠ - 2♦ - 3♣ auction, since I rate to make 3N or 4♠ on power alone.

[luke warm]

i used to play that it didn't show extra strength, but since then i've been convinced that it's pretty much the same as a reverse... so extra strength in both

[xx1943]

jillybean2, on Nov 10 2004, 09:07 PM, said:

Are these intended for BIL'ies or expert no brainers?

Hi Kathryn,

I invented this thread for Billies, to see, what is the experts opinion.

Al

[EricK]

This, like other reverses, shows extras.

e.g. If you just show shape and partner's next bid is 3NT, what do you do with extras? If you bid on you risk going down if partner is minimum; if you pass, you may miss a slam if partner is maximum and fitting.

The main (only?!) benefit of 2/1 is that after a 2/1 partner is not going to pass your minimum rebids. This allows you the time both to find your best fit AND differentiate between minimum and maximum hands. If you ignore the latter possibility you are giving up much of the benefit.

Eric

[helene_t]

I suppose the reason why a high reverse shows extra's while a 2-o-2-reverse could be debated, is that a high reverse makes responder captain. He can't differentiate between 2NT and 3NT anymore so he has to make the decision himself of whether or not to bid beyond 3NT, and therefore he has to be informed.

As for 2-o-2-reverses, part of the problem is that unbalanced opening hands have a broader range (12-19 as opposed to 12-14 + 18-19). So allthough a 2-o-2-reverse is not that space consuming it might still be dificult to find out how strong opener is if his rebid says nothing about strength.