[wyman]

1D (1S) 2C (3S weak)
3N (P) 4C (P)
4D

2/1, 4C is slammish with clubs

Is 4D a cue or suggesting diamonds might be a better place to play? In a recent discussion, the following were brought up:

"If 4D is natural, that would make it impossible for you to cue-bid in the suit in which you are most likely to hold a control."

"3N bidder is under a lot of pressure. KQx / Qx / KQJxxxx / x?"

[mikeh]

This is similar in theme to the thread on the reverse, followed by responder bidding 4♥ over a cuebid. we have an auction that is ambiguous in that neither opener nor responder has clearly limited their hands and a call is made that could be either natural or a cuebid.

While I ordinarily like the meta rule that a call is natural if it can logically be natural, I don't think that applies here.

While the aceless wonder of a hand proposed for 3N is sort of plausible, it is a tiny target. Responder is completely unlimited, other than that we know that he has a slam try and long clubs. With the Aceless wonder and a stiff club, we bid 5♣.

IOW, 4♣ should be taken not only as a slam try but also as setting trump.

We have to balance the ability to cater to the infrequent hand on which we not only should but can reach diamonds, on this sequence, against what I think is the far more common hand (and the far more high-paying hand) on which it is necessary to explore the level at which we play in clubs....at this juncture, that could be game, small slam or grand.

If we can't make 5♣, but could make 5♦, too bad. At the risk of incurring the wrath of many....sometimes preempts work.

[whereagles]

 wyman, on 2012-February-20, 11:17, said:

1D (1S) 2C (3S weak)
3N (P) 4C (P)
4D

2/1, 4C is slammish with clubs

Is 4D a cue or suggesting diamonds might be a better place to play? In a recent discussion, the following were brought up:

With my pet pard I play that 4x now is cue and accepting clubs. With an uninteresting hand opener bids either 5C or 4NT (TO PLAY!!).

[gnasher]

If opener has long of diamonds and short clubs, he can, depending on the hand:
- Sign off in 4NT over 4♣.
- Jump to 5♦ over 4♣.
- Temporarily agree clubs and later offer a choice of slams.
- Temporarily agree clubs and later convert to diamonds at the six-level.

That's probably enough to cover all his likely hands, so it seems sensible to play 4♦ as a cue-bid.

[kenrexford]

This is weird. I thought it might never happen, but there is a sequence where Mike thinks that the auction calls for abandoning "if it is natural it must be natural" for cuebids, but where I abandon the cuebid interpretation for the natural one. Just plain weird.

My take, then, is that this 4♦ call is natural.

Opener's auction was already under pressure. The comments about it NOW being "under pressure" miss, IMO, the prior and more relevant pressure. Opener's 3NT call could be based on (1) long diamonds and notrump viability, (2) balanced and big and notrump viability, or even (3) club support and notrump viability. That's a lot of hand types.

Responder, therefore, if slammish, has a lot of territory to cover. There seem to be several possible hand types for bidding 4♣, including (1) self-playing clubs, (2) conditional clubs (interest if you have help in clubs), or even strain open (maybe a diamond slam is possible, also, especially if your diamonds are good, partner).

If Responder had a clear diamond raise type of hand, I think he can bid 4♦ naturally.

If Responder had a clubs-are-it hand, IMO he can self-cue 4♥ or 4♠ (and I don't think that he needs a third option, as he is unlikely to have slam interest with neither major control). Personally, I would actually use 4♥ as RKCB for clubs and 4NT as a heart cue (self-cue setting clubs), but that's a tad esoteric (couldn't help myself).

Hence, IMO 4♣ is the optional/flexible seeking-strain bid. Opener would be expected to cue 4♥ or 4♠ with club acceptance. Opener's 4♦, on the other hand, should show that he really had diamonds and was not some 4-4-3-2 or 4-4-4-1 hand. Usually 6+ diamonds, but possibly 3451 or 4351.

[mikeh]

 kenrexford, on 2012-February-20, 17:43, said:

This is weird. I thought it might never happen, but there is a sequence where Mike thinks that the auction calls for abandoning "if it is natural it must be natural" for cuebids, but where I abandon the cuebid interpretation for the natural one. Just plain weird.

My take, then, is that this 4♦ call is natural.

Ken: I gave a logical, mainstream answer and you found it weird that you have a different take???????

I'd find it weird if you didn't

[gszes]

we run across this theme a lot--
opener has already tried to sign off
in 3n responder wants more.

Opener is in no position to take control
of the hand and should be able to bid
4n if they wish to reinforce lots of
spade stuff.

Given that what do other bids mean?
personally I would bid 4n with this hand
but otherwise I would bid 5d a nearly
self sufficient suit (p must be realy
short in spades or realy strong to bypass
3n so either way 5d should be helpful.
I really would not have problems with
anyone that chose to bid 5d with this hand
vs 4n. Since you failed to make any cue bids
p should have little trouble imagining
your hand (though they might not imagine
spade KQ)

That leaves 4d 4h 4s as available for
cue bids for hands that look slammish.
P isnt slamming looking at Kxxxxxx in
clubs that is the one suit they should
have covered. A mere correction at the
4 level is too small a target and the
space is better served for cuebids.

[JLOGIC]

Why should 4C set trumps, to me 4C just shows 6+ clubs and slam interest. I would bid 4C with x Kxx Kxx AQxxxx, wouldn't everyone? 3N could have been based on either diamonds or bal, to me 4D says "I have long diamonds." We have found no fit and we are bidding nautrally.

[benlessard]

4C just add lenght to club suit it doesnt set trumps.

4D means I think 4NT or 5D/6D might be better than 5C/6C.

[MrAce]

What would be 4♠ instead of 4♣ by pd ?

[gwnn]

opener has no aces.

*ducks* *runs*

[Zelandakh]

Would it make sense to play here:
4♦ = natural, then 4♥ as KC for clubs and 4♠ as KC for diamonds, and
4♥, 4♠, 4NT, 5♣ = KC responses agreeing clubs,
effectively abandoning cue bids altogether? Presumably we could have an agreement to bid 4♠ (instead of 4♣) if specifically looking for a spade control.

[P_Marlowe]

Cue.

4C clubs set the suit., 3NT implied a certain degree of club tolerance, hence we have a fit.

With kind regards
Marlowe