[luke warm]

 Winstonm, on 2012-March-02, 18:09, said:

Not you unless the tag fits. The authoritarian/individualist believes in a hierarchal structure of knowledge and granting power to more knowledgable persons...

that reads like gibberish to me... how exactly would *you* "structure" knowledge? and if the more knowledgeable should not be granted more power, who should be? the less knowledgeable?

Quote

...and he believes in individual rather than collective accomplishments.

who is john galt? it's a peculiarity that almost all great collective accomplishments (if such a thing exists) are made up of many shared (or stolen) individual accomplishments

 kenberg, on 2012-March-03, 07:01, said:

Reading the morning paper I see that Rush Limbaugh has called a Georgetown University student a slut...

not that there's anything wrong with that

Quote

...for speaking in support of the President's policy. I have heard Republicans theorize that this policy is really a plot by Obama to lure them into making statements that will antagonize potential supporters. If so, it seems to be working. But then they seem pretty able to do this without assistance from anyone.

yeah, this whole thing is pretty stupid if you ask me, on both sides... those who think that free birth control is a right would have a hard time supporting that... the argument should be limited, imo, to that

[Winstonm]

Quote

that reads like gibberish to me... how exactly would *you* "structure" knowledge?

By educational level achieved, for one. This seems to me to be a fairly consistent viewpoint of those whom I see as authoritarian/individualist - using the amount of letters after the name as a guage of the reliability of the statement made.

Quote

(and if the more knowledgeable should not be granted more power, who should be? the less knowledgeable?)

Perhaps we the people - or their elected representatives? Egalitarianism versus authoritarianism?

You tell me, after you check with your boss, that is.

Quote

who is john galt? it's a peculiarity that almost all great collective accomplishments (if such a thing exists) are made up of many shared (or stolen) individual accomplishments

It is curious to me how so many of us still hold onto the concept of the "rugged individualist" when our entire civilization is comprised of collective achievement. How many of the pseudo-rugged individuals - if left alone in the middle of nowhere - would know on their own how to build a house, produce electricity from running water, construct wire to carry electricity, create central heating, air conditioning, clean water, sewer systems, safe food, and on and on and on...

As arrogant humans, we don't like to admit that we more resemble an ant collony or a bee hive than we do the great lone puma.

[y66]

That Limbaugh episode does make Obama's initial mishandling of this issue appear almost tactical.

Will be interesting to see how he responds to Netanyahu's Iran gambit.

[PassedOut]

 y66, on 2012-March-04, 10:11, said:

That Limbaugh episode does make Obama's initial mishandling of this issue appear almost tactical.

The drug-addled talk show host changes his tune: Limbaugh apologizes to law student for insult on sex, says he intended no personal attack

Quote

By Saturday, six advertisers had pulled sponsorship of Limbaugh’s show and Republicans distanced themselves from the comments.

Free market at work.

[onoway]

 Winstonm, on 2012-March-04, 08:44, said:

It is curious to me how so many of us still hold onto the concept of the "rugged individualist" when our entire civilization is comprised of collective achievement. How many of the pseudo-rugged individuals - if left alone in the middle of nowhere - would know on their own how to build a house, produce electricity from running water, construct wire to carry electricity, create central heating, air conditioning, clean water, sewer systems, safe food, and on and on and on...

As arrogant humans, we don't like to admit that we more resemble an ant collony or a bee hive than we do the great lone puma.

Aside from constructing wire to carry electricity you might be very surprised at how many people know how to do all those things and much more. Though most of them would focus on building houses which required little or no central heating or air conditioning. And more are learning all the time, as they look around at how things are shaping up in the great wide world. They'd pretty well all be able to find wire even if they couldn't make it. You didn't even mention running your vehicles and so forth on homemade wood gas or methane.

The hard one is refrigeration in hot climates and even that can be handled with very low tech as long as not too much stuff needs to be cooled or kept cold at once. Higher tech stuff can be done too, but tends to be dangerous:). You just don't move in those circles, obviously There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio....

[kenberg]

Whenever my house is haunted I call Ghostbusters.

[Winstonm]

 onoway, on 2012-March-04, 11:50, said:

Aside from constructing wire to carry electricity you might be very surprised at how many people know how to do all those things and much more. Though most of them would focus on building houses which required little or no central heating or air conditioning. And more are learning all the time, as they look around at how things are shaping up in the great wide world. They'd pretty well all be able to find wire even if they couldn't make it. You didn't even mention running your vehicles and so forth on homemade wood gas or methane.

The hard one is refrigeration in hot climates and even that can be handled with very low tech as long as not too much stuff needs to be cooled or kept cold at once. Higher tech stuff can be done too, but tends to be dangerous:). You just don't move in those circles, obviously There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio....

Mosquito Coast reference?

I would venture that most average Americans would end up living about a 1500's existence without the collective support of society.

Besides ice, I am pretty certain the average person has no clue how to manufacture antibiotics or basic pain relievers.

However, just about everyone has the capacity to pray for rain, though.

[hrothgar]

 onoway, on 2012-March-04, 11:50, said:

Aside from constructing wire to carry electricity you might be very surprised at how many people know how to do all those things and much more. Though most of them would focus on building houses which required little or no central heating or air conditioning. And more are learning all the time, as they look around at how things are shaping up in the great wide world. They'd pretty well all be able to find wire even if they couldn't make it. You didn't even mention running your vehicles and so forth on homemade wood gas or methane.

The hard one is refrigeration in hot climates and even that can be handled with very low tech as long as not too much stuff needs to be cooled or kept cold at once. Higher tech stuff can be done too, but tends to be dangerous:). You just don't move in those circles, obviously There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio....

Sorry dude, I don't buy any of this...

I've done ever step from gathering bog iron, to smelting said iron, to manufacturing a spear, to hunting down a boar (and later eating it)
This was an enormous amount of work (and that was with a working forge, anvil, hammers, etc...)

The only reason that this was remotely feasible was that I was doing this as a "game"...
I had food, I had shelter, I could afford to spend weeks on this type of silly project.

Lets consider building these houses that don't require central heating / air conditioning...

Where are you getting your lumber?
What are you eating while you build your house?

Do you know anything about growing crops?
What about storing them for long periods of time?

Hell, where are you going to get salt?

[kenberg]

That should be addressed to dudess.

Other than that, I agree. What possibly I could have done had I lived in a different time and place, who knows. I worked on cars at one time. Now I take in and leave it. If the plumbing has problems, I call a plumber. etc

[Winstonm]

Perhaps the reason I have egalitarian leanings is due to my realization of just how pathetic I am when it comes to survival, and how much I need society and the civilization it affords.

Or it might simply be because of my awareness that individualism is more fancy than fact?

[onoway]

I certainly didn't mean to suggest it would be easy or fast either, but was responding to this "would know on their own how to build a house, produce electricity from running water, construct wire to carry electricity, create central heating, air conditioning, clean water, sewer systems, safe food, and on and on and on..."

Even the people who do know how to do these things would likely agree in a heartbeat that it would be better to have other people around so the work and knowledge can be shared..even just for company! Even more so that different people could share different expertise..herbalism is a pretty extensive study for example, if no modern medicines would ever be available, it would be helpful to have someone who was knowledgeable in that area. My point was that there are people who wouldn't be at a loss for knowing how to proceed, which was what I thought was the question.

I'm not sure that even "rugged individualists" equate that with being isolated from all human company indefinitely. Is that really what you mean?

Btw I hadn't considered the question of salt, nor had I seen it discussed anywhere so it was an interesting point. So I looked for some information.
Quote:
. Meat as a source of protein has arguably been cited as an important component of man's diet, However it was the salt content, whether due to the preserving characteristics employed in sacrificial processes, or the blood serum salt content of the animal before being drained from the animal which was clearly critical
x x x x x x
In regions of the world where the population lives mainly on meat or fish, there is no difficulty in satisfying this physiological need as animal food provides enough salt. Salt-deprivation does however, become a hazard in vast areas where meat is scarce and many depend primarily on a vegetable diet.
End Quote.

Always assuming you aren't near the ocean or some other salt source.

[kenberg]

This thread has seriously wandered, as threads do.But if we discuss "rugged individualism" I would say that in my own life I have been somewhere in the middle of the modern approach. Eg I had to find my own way to pay for college, but I got a scholarship and went to the taxpayer supported University of Minnesota.

But who cares what I did anyway.

The political/social point that I would push is that most, almost all, people who think that they are self-made should think a little more carefully. I have had help and I have had good fortune. I hope fortune looks favorably on others, and I don't mind at all if some of the opportunities to take advantage of good fortune are provided through my taxes.


Otoh, if anyone wants something to prod them into sputtering frustration, try reading
‘We don’t believe in living for free’ in
http://www.washingto...om/todays_paper


I suppose this link goes out of date at midnight. The essence is that this couple have been living in a million dollar plus house that they bought five years go and have yet to make a mortgage payment on. More villains in this piece than one can count. Rugged individualists of a type, I guess.

[hrothgar]

 onoway, on 2012-March-04, 16:40, said:

Btw I hadn't considered the question of salt, nor had I seen it discussed anywhere so it was an interesting point. So I looked for some information.
Quote:
. Meat as a source of protein has arguably been cited as an important component of man's diet, However it was the salt content, whether due to the preserving characteristics employed in sacrificial processes, or the blood serum salt content of the animal before being drained from the animal which was clearly critical
x x x x x x
In regions of the world where the population lives mainly on meat or fish, there is no difficulty in satisfying this physiological need as animal food provides enough salt. Salt-deprivation does however, become a hazard in vast areas where meat is scarce and many depend primarily on a vegetable diet.
End Quote.

Always assuming you aren't near the ocean or some other salt source.

I wasn't so much talking about salt as a food supplement, but rather as a preservative...

[blackshoe]

As someone in favor of individualism, I have to say that I recognize that cooperation is of value. That doesn't mean that I think the collective should take precedence.

[PassedOut]

 kenberg, on 2012-March-04, 17:07, said:

The political/social point that I would push is that most, almost all, people who think that they are self-made should think a little more carefully. I have had help and I have had good fortune. I hope fortune looks favorably on others, and I don't mind at all if some of the opportunities to take advantage of good fortune are provided through my taxes.

This point is right on target, in my opinion.

Lots of this "self-made" delusion is rationalization to avoid contributing to the advancement of others, particularly through paying taxes. Somewhat related, I've actually heard folks say that they shouldn't have to pay for schools because they have no children. And some have been pissed when I pointed out that THEY went to school paid for by everyone, including taxpayers with no children and those whose children were grown. (Come to think of it, it might have been partly my phrasing that set them off.)

[blackshoe]

As someone who has no children, I have to admit that it sometimes occurs to me that I shouldn't have to pay school taxes. But if you think about it, this is one of those "cooperation" things that is, in the long run, to my advantage. So, while I would much rather that schooling was privatized, in which case nobody would pay school taxes, I have no problem with everybody paying. Note also that if there were no school taxes, I might well include the local (private) school system as a good candidate for my charitable contributions.

[awm]

 blackshoe, on 2012-March-04, 18:24, said:

As someone who has no children, I have to admit that it sometimes occurs to me that I shouldn't have to pay school taxes. But if you think about it, this is one of those "cooperation" things that is, in the long run, to my advantage. So, while I would much rather that schooling was privatized, in which case nobody would pay school taxes, I have no problem with everybody paying. Note also that if there were no school taxes, I might well include the local (private) school system as a good candidate for my charitable contributions.

There are very good reasons for a public school system. If a person has certain talents that can be useful in making a living (and helping out society is a whole) it's much better if they get the training and education they need to maximally use their abilities. Obviously this is better for the person in question (who will make a much better salary) but it's also better for everyone because absent this training we would have less useful skilled people to employ, and more people who turn to crime or charity for survival.

The problem with exclusively private education is that there are many people who, through bad luck or bad choices, are very poor. One can obviously argue that poverty is "their own fault" and that it's not the government's job to help them, and that people who feel sorry for these folks should give private charity, etc. (I disagree). However, the more interesting point is the children of these people. Those kids have done nothing wrong except be born to the wrong mom and dad. They could certainly be smart or talented people who could easily contribute to society and support themselves (or more) if only they got a good education, which their parents certainly cannot provide them in a system where education is private. Better for all of us if they are educated!

[Winstonm]

 blackshoe, on 2012-March-04, 18:24, said:

....So, while I would much rather that schooling was privatized, in which case nobody would pay school taxes....

How could this not lead to a caste system where only the advantaged were educated? It sounds downright feudal in nature to me - I really do not understand the libertarian point of view. Libertarianism seems to me to be based on a fantasized reality rather than acceptance of realities.

[Bbradley62]

 blackshoe, on 2012-March-04, 18:24, said:

As someone who has no children, I have to admit that it sometimes occurs to me that I shouldn't have to pay school taxes. But if you think about it, this is one of those "cooperation" things that is, in the long run, to my advantage.

I'm trying to remember what comedian used to say "I'd rather pay for you to go to high school now than pay for you stealing my car later..."

[blackshoe]

 Winstonm, on 2012-March-04, 18:52, said:

How could this not lead to a caste system where only the advantaged were educated? It sounds downright feudal in nature to me - I really do not understand the libertarian point of view. Libertarianism seems to me to be based on a fantasized reality rather than acceptance of realities.

Perhaps the libertarian view is that the status quo is not the only possible reality.

I'm not expert enough in these things to be able to explain it off the top of my head, but it's certainly demonstrable that the current public education system is not educating our children very well. It is also true that most (all?) libertarians believe that in a true free market society the overall standard of living would be much higher than ours is now. If that were the case, I think one could argue that the cost of quality education would be accessible to many more people. I can't prove it, of course. For one thing, we've never had a true free market society (not in the last several hundred years, anyway), so the only way to find out if libertarians are right is to try it.