[MickyB]

---

[aguahombre]

Hmm. Leben 2NT was weak with 4+ clubs or invite in a major? After my mandatory 3D with this hand, I still am not sure. Does she have invite with 5+ hearts, or a club bust with merely 3 hearts? (2-3-4-4).

Anyway, I bid 4C and hope to unscrew it. Freely admitting we have failed to discuss this situation.

[whereagles]

4C seems normal.

[CSGibson]

3N for me. Even if they lead the ace of diamonds, partner may save the day by having Jxx or Txxx.

[gnasher]

What sort of major-suit invitations go via 2NT? 4-card, 5-card or all?

[MrAce]

gnasher, on 2012-February-11, 16:43, said:

What sort of major-suit invitations go via 2NT? 4-card, 5-card or all?

I think 2 NT and then 3♥ should be inv and only 4♥. I also think if responder had ♣ bust hand he should bid them now instead of bidding 3 card ♥, so i would take it as 4 card ♥ and invitation values. I still bid 4♣ which is obv forcing.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

MickyB, on 2012-February-11, 15:43, said:

---

I'm wondering if Advancer didn't know ( or forgot ) that with only ONE 4+ card Major he could bid a direct 2H with a WEAK hand ( 0-6 hcp ).
The direct 3H would show 9-10 hcp , and the " slow 3H " route ( 2NT! then 3H after a forced 3C ) would be 7-8 hcp .

We can't tell exactly now what his 3H is after he has been forced by 3D! If it were the 7-8 hcp hand, he could have jumped to 4H, except he may not have wanted to go past 3NT with only 4 cards Hts. ( He definitely should have jumped to 4H with 5 cards Hts and the 7-8 hand ) .

The only other reason to bid Leb2NT! is if he wanted to drop you in 3C, but I doubt it from the length of your Clubs.

I think I'll try 3S ( It still leaves 3NT in the picture -- "cloudy" as it is ).

[aguahombre]

I think a direct 3H, with leben available, should be forcing...shunning subtle distinctions between 7-8 and 9-10. But my pard's direct doubles have a bit more substance than most.

But, am still woefully unprepared for my own cue after the double and Leben, and awaiting any suggestions which fit what we have agreed. That might not happen if no one else thinks 3H would have been forcing over the original double.

[BunnyGo]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-February-11, 16:59, said:

I'm wondering if Advancer didn't know ( or forgot ) that with only ONE 4+ card Major he could bid a direct 2H with a WEAK hand ( 0-6 hcp ).
The direct 3H would show 9-10 hcp , and the " slow 3H " route ( 2NT! then 3H after a forced 3C ) would be 7-8 hcp .

I try to never bid as if my partner has forgotten our agreements (especially in the A/E forum) but even when I play with my kid cousin who doesn't know and does forget, I still try to play as if he didn't.



As for the question, it's something I've never considered (despite playing this convention). I'd guess he's denying the club bust and showing some shape, I'd bid 4♣ now.

[MrAce]

aguahombre, on 2012-February-11, 17:17, said:

I think a direct 3H, with leben available, should be forcing...shunning subtle distinctions between 7-8 and 9-10. But my pard's direct doubles have a bit more substance than most.

I like the method Frances posted in another lebensohl topic. Not exactly the same auction but i think we can apply the same logic here too.

FrancesHinden, on 2012-February-10, 16:13, said:

After 2♥ dbl pass we play as follows:

2♠ weak
2NT lebensohl
3 minor natural, constructive, NF
3♥ game forcing, if only to game denies a heart stop and promises 4 spades but might have slam interest without 4 spades
3♠ invitational with 5 spades
3NT to play, not expecting partner to bid again without a slam try
4 minor natural and forcing
4♥ good 4♠ bid
4♠ to play no particular slam interest
4NT natural invitational
5m to play
5♥ 2-suited spades + a minor slam force
5♠ random slam try (4♥ either weaker or stronger)
5NT pick a minor
6 non-hearts to play
6♥ undiscussed


After 2NT, doubler bids non-3C with extras; 3D♦ is strong but NF; 3M is forcing. Advancer has to make his own arrangements if he didn't have a weak hand.
After 2NT-3C then
P/3♦ to play
3♥ game forcing, 4 spades & heart stop (usually just COG)
3♠ invitational with 4 spades
3NT to play, but suggests doubt (usually only one heart stop and a 5/6 card minor)
4♣/4♦ game forcing, 6 card suit + 4card spade suit
4♥ 5 spades + 5 card minor
4♠ mild slam try
5 minor mild slam try (a bit obscure as you could have bid 4m forcing last round)

others undiscussed, sorry(!)

[MickyB]

gnasher, on 2012-February-11, 16:43, said:

What sort of major-suit invitations go via 2NT? 4-card, 5-card or all?

All, I believe.

[benlessard]

3H can be both, I dont expect partner to bid 3Nt without a stopper or to bid 4C with a club bust because he doesnt have a stopper. Anyway my hand is perfect for 4D COG. When no fit is clearly established, 4cuebid and 4Nt are NOT slam tries/ace asking, they are COG.

If you play transfer Lebensohl or Sohl, 3D over the X would be transfer to H inv or better, So 2nt-3C-3H is 4H inv. Any1 play like this ?

[gnasher]

MickyB, on 2012-February-11, 23:23, said:

All, I believe.

You should play better methods then: the invitational hands should jump to 3M over the double, and the game-forces should go via 2NT. Then you could assume that 3♥ was a club hand. An originally game-forcing hand could safely cue-bid or make a forcing jump to 4M.

Back to your actual methods. With a five-card invitation, advancer can jump to game in his major. That leaves the 4-card invitations and the 3-card gropes. Without discussion 3♥ is probably two-way, in that you'd bid it with either hand and hope for the best.

A complictaion not encountered on this deal is that if 3♥ is two-way, opener won't know what to do if he has a diamond stop and four hearts. He'll probably assume the grope-type, so with the 4-card invitation advancer should probably move after 3♥-3NT.

With the hand given, I can't imagine a hand where 3NT makes but 5♣ doesn't, so I'm happy to give up on 3NT. 4♠ is also not in the picture. We might make 6♣ opposite Jxx Kxx xxx Qxxx or xx Kxx xxx Qxxxx, but those are quite well-fitting. I'd bid 4♣ if I was sure it was forcing, but I'm not. Instead, I'll bid 4♦. If partner bids 4♥ over that, I'll know he has the invitation and I'll drive slam in something; otherwise I'll know he had clubs and we'll play in 5♣.

[gnasher]

benlessard, on 2012-February-12, 02:09, said:

If you play transfer Lebensohl or Sohl, 3D over the X would be transfer to H inv or better, So 2nt-3C-3H is 4H inv. Any1 play like this ?

That's a good idea. You could even play two sets of transfers: a direct 3♦/3♥ could be invitational+ with four, and a delayed 3♦/3♥ could be invitational+ with five.

[Fluffy]

I would bid 2 spades, catters for partner being 4-4 majors invitational, and serves as a cuebid as well if partner is already looking for slam in hearts

[MickyB]

gnasher, on 2012-February-12, 03:49, said:

You should play better methods then: the invitational hands should jump to 3M over the double, and the game-forces should go via 2NT. Then you could assume that 3♥ was a club hand. An originally game-forcing hand could safely cue-bid or make a forcing jump to 4M.

Back to your actual methods. With a five-card invitation, advancer can jump to game in his major. That leaves the 4-card invitations and the 3-card gropes. Without discussion 3♥ is probably two-way, in that you'd bid it with either hand and hope for the best.

A complictaion not encountered on this deal is that if 3♥ is two-way, opener won't know what to do if he has a diamond stop and four hearts. He'll probably assume the grope-type, so with the 4-card invitation advancer should probably move after 3♥-3NT.

With the hand given, I can't imagine a hand where 3NT makes but 5♣ doesn't, so I'm happy to give up on 3NT. 4♠ is also not in the picture. We might make 6♣ opposite Jxx Kxx xxx Qxxx or xx Kxx xxx Qxxxx, but those are quite well-fitting. I'd bid 4♣ if I was sure it was forcing, but I'm not. Instead, I'll bid 4♦. If partner bids 4♥ over that, I'll know he has the invitation and I'll drive slam in something; otherwise I'll know he had clubs and we'll play in 5♣.

I was given the problem, so not my methods - in fact I play 2NT as natural here - but your view on the hand is the closest to mine, surely in these situations you should assume the weak+common hand until proven otherwise...I gave it to a couple of people who I'd normally expect to be on the same wavelength as me in these situations and neither of them were. Maybe you and I should have a game sometime!

[TWO4BRIDGE]

MickyB, on 2012-February-12, 08:48, said:

I was given the problem, so not my methods - in fact I play 2NT as natural here - but your view on the hand is the closest to mine, surely in these situations you should assume the weak+common hand until proven otherwise...I gave it to a couple of people who I'd normally expect to be on the same wavelength as me in these situations and neither of them were. Maybe you and I should have a game sometime!

So, what was the Doublers actual hand ? ( Did he just have a 4 card Ht invite ? or ? ).

[aguahombre]

Sometimes I get a headache figuring out who is asking about what. South was the doubler; North was the advancer; one of the other guys was the opener.

[MickyB]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-February-12, 09:44, said:

So, what was the Doublers actual hand ? ( Did he just have a 4 card Ht invite ? or ? ).

Advancer had a 4♥ invite, yes.