[pbleighton]

All of the definitions of reversing I have seen have a strength requirements (usually 17+ HCP), and the requirement that the first suit bid be longer than the second.  There is usually a hedge on the second requirement.  My question is: how important is the second requirement?  

1) On the following hands you have opened 1D, LHO passes, your partner has responded 1S, RHO passes:
A) x AKQx AJxx Axxx
x Axxx Axxx AKQJ
C) x xxxx AKQx AKQx
What do you rebid on these hands?  If 2H is the right rebid, then could the length requirement be restated as "don't reverse if you can rebid 2NT" i.e. playing 15-17 NT, don't reverse in the above with Kx AQxx Axxx AQx, rebid 2NT?

2) What about competition? Holding xx AKxx AKQx Kxx, the bidding has gone 1D (you) - P - 1S - 2C - ?. What does 2NT show in this situation.  Is it 18-19, even though it isn't a jump?  If not would you rebid 2H?  Does vulnerability matter?

3) When bidding a 5-4 or 6-4, for determining strength for deciding whether to reverse, do you count length, or is it strictly HCP?

[inquiry]

The minimum requirement for a reverse depends upon, to a large degree, on rather or not you play them forcing to game and if you play Lebenhsohl over reverse or not. (also known as something like ingraham [spelling?]. If you have such a convention available, you can shade your reverse stregnth down some. Rather than explain lebehnshol over reverse, I simple give the following link to a page describing it.

http://www.prairiene...dge/rev-leb.htm

I would actually reverse with the following 14-hcp hand on 1C-1H-2S
S-AKxxx H-x -D-x C-AQJxxx

Your Item 1) I would not reverse with any of the hands you showed under your item 1. The reason has less to do with only 18 hcp and more to deal with the real possibility that your may have a misfit. And even if I do play Lebehnsol over reverse, I still wouldn't do it, because partner with a weak hand, would bid a forcing 2NT, which maybe were we need to play the hand. Although with your hand C, I probably would have opened 1C and then reversed into 2D over 1S or 1H response (in second case, showing H support next) due to the playing stregnth of the two suits.

With the hand Kx AQxx Axxx AQx I would rebid 2NT

Your Item 2). Without a specific agreement for some other meaning, I play 2NT here as the hand I usually jump to 2NT on if EAST had passed.

Your Item 3) I use Playing Stregnth of the hand. The more distribution, the less hcp needed. I showed a 14 hcp reverse above or instance.

[bglover]

I have covered this in a previous thread (regarding how to bid 5-5 black suits) but I think it bears repeating. Please understand this is only my opiniion.

Let us assume you pick up this hand (actual hand from earlier this week):

A
xx
AK10xx
AQjxx

If you follow the requirement (oft stated in many places) that you must have unequal suits to reverse then you are required to open 1D and jump to 3c on your next bid. Now, this hand is certainly strong enough to withstand a 3 level bid on its own if partner bids... but if we take the ace of clubs away and replace it with the deuce, do u really want to force the three level and risk the 4 level? I wouldn't.

As a practical matter, I would open either of the hands 1C and reverse in diamonds, then bid diamonds again to show my pattern if partner doesnt return to clubs. It saves an entire level of bidding vs. breaking the unequal suits requirement. In the 2d case (where i have removed the ace of clubs), that economy may well be necessary (its hard to stop below 3nt with this hand after a jump shift), and if partner is on  a relative bust that savings is worth it.

[easy]

regarding the hand  
A
xx
aktxx
aqjxx




"As a practical matter, I would open either of the hands 1C and reverse in diamonds, then bid diamonds again to show my pattern if partner doesnt return to clubs. It saves an entire level of bidding vs. breaking the unequal suits requirement. In the 2d case (where i have removed the ace of clubs), that economy may well be necessary (its hard to stop below 3nt with this hand after a jump shift), and if partner is on  a relative bust that savings is worth it. "


reply

In normal bidding when bidding 2 suits every time u rebid a second suit you show equal or more length in the first bid suit. There fore if you open clubs and bid diamonds twice pard has the rite to expect u to hold 6clubs not 5.
Also (in std american bidding) reverses are not a game forces but a 1 round force. They range from a great 16 to 21 hcp (unless the hand is wildly distributional in which case it could have fewer hcp)if you have a game force and reverse your 3rd bid must indicate such.Opening 1d and jumpshifting into clubs seems appropriate to me in the first instance.

In the example given where the C A is removed leaving

A
xx
Aktxx
qjxxx

i see no reason to do anything other than open 1d and rebid 2c. After all, that auction does include hands that fall in the 12-17 hcp range......doesnt it.

[eyhung]

I agree 100% with easy.  Accurate distributional information is far more important than accurate high card information when you are dealing with highly unbalanced hands.  After all, we've all seen slams that make with 18-22 HCP when there are voids and singletons about, and without good distributional information, your partnership won't be able to bid these slams with a high degree of confidence.

In Standard American, with 5-5, you should always open the higher-ranking suit and rebid the lower suit.  (Exception: some players like to open 1C with 5 cards in each black suit, because then you can bid both suits at the 1-level and the alternative of opening 1S practically guarantees you will have to rebid clubs at the 3-level).  Opening the lower-ranking suit and bidding the higher one once promises at least 4-5, and rebidding the higher one promises at least 5-6.  

While there are very few absolutes in bidding, I cannot recall the last time I needed to reverse with equal length in my two suits (unless I opened 1C with 5-5 in the blacks).  Barring that exception, if you ever find yourself planning a reverse with equal length, you should probably plan on another sequence, for a good partner will never read you for equal length and then your constructive bidding will be less effective.

Under this approach of only reversing with unequal lengths, you will have to rebid at the 2-level, not the 3-level with 5-5 hands that are significantly better than minimum but not worth a game force opposite a 1-level response.  That is not a problem -- if partner cannot find another rebid over your 2-level rebid, you are not making game unless the cards or opponents are very friendly.

Finally, as inquiry pointed out, it's usually a bad idea to reverse with 4-4-4-1 hand patterns.  Such hands generally do not play well on offense despite their singleton.  With 1444 and great high-card strength I open 1D and over a response of 1S, rebid 2C, 2NT, 3C, or 3NT depending on the texture of my hand -- I never open 1C and reverse into diamonds because I do not want to promise a 5th club.

Eugene Hung

[the hog]

Totally agree with Eugene. Never reverse on a 4432 shape, partner will never believe you. 4432 is a balanced distribution, without 4 card support for partner, bid the appropriate level of NTs.

4441 shapes do not handle well in either the bidding or the play; again to reverse on this shows 5+ in the first bid suit.

Eugene mentions 5/5 in the blacks. I would suggest always opening 1S UNLESS you are happy to bid 4S  with a passing partner over 4H by the time the bidding gets back to you. iow unless you have a hand strong enough to have some play for 4S.

[Codo]

Hi all,
Accurate distributional information is far more important than accurate high card information when you are dealing with highly unbalanced hands.
You are so right. But unfortunatly, it is far more important to show your HCPS accuratly with balanced hands.
I don´t believe, that you can solve this little dilemma in a natural system without a little lie here and there...

While there are very few absolutes in bidding, I cannot recall the last time I needed to reverse with equal length in my two suits

Nor can I. But I cannot remember the last hand, when it was more important for my Pd to see my 6/5 pattern versus showing him my overall strength.
So I believe, that it is nice to lie about the 6. card and show if I have 17+ or even 20+ HCPs.

Do you remember the last time, when you needed to show your 6. card in your 6/5 suiter very quickly in an uncontested auction?

But of course, I totally agree, that the hand
A
xx
Aktxx
qjxxx

is an easy 1 D-1any-2Club bid.

Once in a while you are allowed to have maximum for your bid.

Kind Regards

Roland

[eyhung]

Quote

Hi all,
Accurate distributional information is far more important than accurate high card information when you are dealing with highly unbalanced hands.
You are so right. But unfortunatly, it is far more important to show your HCPS accuratly with balanced hands.
I don´t believe, that you can solve this little dilemma in a natural system without a little lie here and there...

There is no dilemma unless you open an incredible range of balanced hands.  In Standard American, balanced hands with 0-11 HCP are passed.  With balanced hands of 12 HCP to 21 HCP, you open some number of notrumps (15-17, 20-21), or rebid notrumps at your first turn, in a manner that describes your HCP range  accurately(12-14, 18-19).  With a balanced hand with 22+ HCP, open 2 clubs and rebid notrump according to your agreements.

Now, when I am talking about reverses, I am not talking about doing so on balanced hands (4333, 4432, 5332).  A reverse should be made on an unbalanced hand, a hand that is not oriented towards notrump, and therefore one that does not need as much accurate description in terms of high cards.  

Note that I treat most semi-balanced shapes (5422, 6322) as unbalanced, and bid the suits first.  But as others have pointed out, semi-balanced hands with poor long suits and honors in their short suit should be treated as balanced and bid according to the notrump structure.

Quote

I cannot remember the last hand, when it was more important for my Pd to see my 6/5 pattern versus showing him my overall strength.
So I believe, that it is nice to lie about the 6. card and show if I have 17+ or even 20+ HCPs.

Do you remember the last time, when you needed to show your 6. card in your 6/5 suiter very quickly in an uncontested auction?

Yes.  A sectional I was playing in approximately three weeks ago.  I had 6-5 shape, and after bidding and rebidding my suits, partner was able to confidently choose the 6-1 fit instead of the 5-1.  It was a complete misfit, as you can tell, but it would have been a terrible result  if partner had preferenced me to the 5-1.  Lying about the relative lengths of your suits is not worth it if partner cannot make a good decision.

In any case, I see no problem with the inability to  reverse with 19+ HCP hands that have at least 5 cards in the higher suit and 4 cards in the lower suit.  Open your higher suit, and rebid with a jump in the lower one.  You lose a little space compared to the reverse, but you gain the benefits of a game-forcing auction and thus more space "on top".   Also, hands with 55 distribution can jump in the second suit with 17+ HCP, as extra shape compensates for the high cards.  Under this approach, you should rarely miss a good game and still retain correct distributional information from reverses.  So why not have the best of both worlds?

Eugene Hung

[bglover]

Actually, that was the reason I used my example about dropping the Ace out of the 19 point hand... Maybe a better question would be whether 1255 and 15 HCPs is worth a reverse at all. I think it is.

I want to stress that if I choose this strategy (reversing 5-5 hands) it is inevitably a club-diamnd hand... If the hand contains a long-suit major I rarely reverse... I always bid the major first. I think for minor suit hands tho, it is important to preserve biddng space as reversing can get you past 3nt sometimes when that is the best spot.

[Codo]

Hi Eugene,

you made some very nice points. I just have one question/remark to your sample:

A sectional I was playing in approximately three weeks ago.  I had 6-5 shape, and after bidding and rebidding my suits, partner was able to confidently choose the 6-1 fit instead of the 5-1.  It was a complete misfit, as you can tell, but it would have been a terrible result  if partner had preferenced me to the 5-1.  Lying about the relative lengths of your suits is not worth it if partner cannot make a good decision.


Here in our system, the first suit is nver shorter (at least it should not be..) So whenever you bid, your pd will return to your first suit if possible, because there is a big chance, that it is longer.
And anyway, after your reverse, you needed to play in a 6-1 fit one level higher then in the 5-1 fit. This sound not to be such an important advantage of EVER using a reverse only with non-equal length...
And I do believe, that there is a big difference between 17 and 20 Point hands, no matter if you call just HCPS or distributional points too. A 17 HCP reverse can be easily passed away with a 6 or 7 point non fitting hand.
After a jump shift with 20+, you know, you have a GF.
I guess, that this is more important issue then to avoid 5-1 fits in 3 any compared to 6-1 fits in 4 any...

Kind Regards

Roland

[eyhung]

Quote

Actually, that was the reason I used my example about dropping the Ace out of the 19 point hand... Maybe a better question would be whether 1255 and 15 HCPs is worth a reverse at all. I think it is.

I want to stress that if I choose this strategy (reversing 5-5 hands) it is inevitably a club-diamnd hand... If the hand contains a long-suit major I rarely reverse... I always bid the major first. I think for minor suit hands tho, it is important to preserve biddng space as reversing can get you past 3nt sometimes when that is the best spot.

I do not understand what you are saying.  First you say that if you are reversing with equal length, it is only with a minor two-suiter.  Then, you say for minor suit hands it is important to preserve bidding space (by not reversing) because reversing gets you past 3NT.  Make up your mind?

In any case, reversing with equal length in the minors is fundamentally unsound.  If you have 5-5 in the minors and only 15 HCP, there is even more of a reason to open 1D and rebid 2C instead of reversing into 2D after opening 1C.  If 3NT or 5 of a minor is a good contract, partner will need to have a fit and/or 10 HCP.  In either case he should not pass 2C with a hand where you should be in game.

Eugene Hung

[eyhung]

Quote

Hi Eugene,

Here in our system, the first suit is nver shorter (at least it should not be..)

Then I do not understand your argument.  I thought you were arguing that it was more important to show strength through reversing, even if it meant lying about distribution.  I am saying that showing strength and forcing partner left and right is unnecessary and you do not need to sacrifice the extra accuracy that results from having a reverse promise unequal lengths.

You are saying that the first suit should never be shorter.  I agree, unless you are playing a canape-style system (which Standard American is not).  But there are can be problems if your sequence does not specifically show a longer suit.  Remember, I was responding to your query as how often it was important to show 6-5.  I had a strong 1-5-1-6.  I opened 1C, rebid 2H over 1S, then 3H over 2S (which promises only 5 spades).  Partner preferenced to 4C, making 4, when 3H was down, but he knew bidding 4C was right because I promised 5-6 (or 5-7!) in the round suits.  If I could have a 5-5 hand from a misguided attempt to "force" partner on the second round (again, if partner passes your rebid -- you should not have a game!), then he will have to guess to make the right decision at this point.

Eugene Hung

[Codo]

Hi Eugene,

sorry, I obviously did not make my point clearly. :-)

I thought you were arguing that it was more important to show strength through reversing, even if it meant lying about distribution.

I never wanted you to lie about the distribution. It is just, that with equal length, in the standard systems here, it is clearly, that you can reverse with equal length too.
If you have something like f.e. 16 HCPs and 5/5, you are simply too strong to rebid a nonforcing "weak two suiter" and too weak to jump.
And I am quite sure, that in the quite common french system, they handle it the same way.

Kind Regards

Roland

[bglover]

Yes, Roland is making my point for me perhaps better than I am myself.

One of my favorite phrases about bridge is that someitmes you have to lie... it's just that good players know which lie to tell partner. (I made that one up so please give me proper credit if quoted!)

With the 15 point 1255 hand (if the suits are good and most of your HC strength is concentrated in them), then it is PERHAPS better to tell the small lie of opening a club and reversing into diamonds than to open diamonds and bid clubs twice. Why? Because, with Lenbensol, partner can ask how good you are and, if he isn't so hot, can bail at the three level.

With the 19 point 1255 hand, I have no problem opening 1D and jump shifting as that hand can easily play at almost any level if partner has enough to respond. With the lesser hand I want a way to keep the bidding low while still showing I have DECENT (not great) values.

I said all along my treatment may not be standard, but I think it is a practical solution to a hand that has an inherent problem. With the methodology available to ask "how good" my reverse is, I think this way of bidding moderate strength reversably minor hands makes sense. Frankly, it has never produced a bad result that I can think of and probably has created a few good ones.

[eyhung]

Well, one of my favorite phrases is that bridge is a partnership game, and those who lie when there is no point to lying are shooting themselves in the foot!

First, Roland, I believe the discussion was about Standard American, not Majeure Cinqueme.   In Standard American, a reverse promises unequal lengths.  You may not like the words I use, but you are lying about the distribution of your hand when you reverse from 1C to 2D in a pickup American partnership with 15-16 HCP and equal length in the minors.  Perhaps you are not doing so in a French partnership, but then you must worry about partner having equal lengths and this affects your later bidding.  You may not think this is much of a loss, but it is a loss nonetheless (for reasons we have both described earlier).

Now, sometimes we must pay a cost in one area in order to get better results in another area.  However, neither of you have convinced me that 1C - 2D with a medium-strength opener is necessary to find games that will not be reached with 1D - 2C!  Again, I reiterate my unanswered point : If you bid 1D - 2C and partner passes, you will not have game.  The only time partner passes 2C is when he has no diamond fit, longer clubs than diamonds, and either an absolute minimum in high cards (6-7 HCP). or a complete misfit.  Show me a hand where partner passes 2C and game is good on the two hands, and I will show you a hand where responder should have bid over 2C, or where the HCP is a poor indicator of the rebid (for example, a highly concentrated hand full of playing tricks is worth a jump-shift, such as x xx AKJT9 AKJT9.)

Finally, I am not against lying to partner if that is best for the partnership.  After all, I am jump-shifting on a highly concentrated 16 HCP hand as above, even though I said earlier such a bid promises 17 HCP -- in fact, any good player would think that hand to be just as good, if not better, than a normal 17-HCP hand such as A Kx AQJxx QJxxx.  But it is important to choose your lies carefully.  I never lie about HCP if I am 4333 or 4432, because HCP are so important in balanced hands.  Similarly, in a constructive auction, I never lie about my shape if I am heavily unbalanced, because such information is critical to good bidding with those.

Eugene Hung

[bglover]

This is too easy.. and a nice way to illustrate why I do this:

Kxx
AKxx
xx
xxxx


I can paint 100 dimond- club hands that are gonna mke 3n here yet if I was responder I am passing 2c if auction goes 1D 2c.. im just glad i found  landing spot that is safe now.

This is a great example of this bid in action... if my partner reverses into diamonds after clubs I'll bid 3n after I have bid 1h but I am definitely passing 1d-1h-2c.

Is 3n a lock? No, but I likes my chances.

[easy]

Quote

This is too easy.. and a nice way to illustrate why I do this:

Kxx
AKxx
xx
xxxx


I can paint 100 dimond- club hands that are gonna mke 3n here yet if I was responder I am passing 2c if auction goes 1D 2c.. im just glad i found  landing spot that is safe now.

This is a great example of this bid in action... if my partner reverses into diamonds after clubs I'll bid 3n after I have bid 1h but I am definitely passing 1d-1h-2c.

Is 3n a lock? No, but I likes my chances.

I was going to leave this thread alone but.......... i can't.
Steve if you have the above hand and pard opens 1d and rebids 2c pass is not a reasonable option. I think most would rebid 2n, some mite only bid 3c but no one would pass.

Here is why. Assuming strong nt. when pard opens 1m and rebids 1nt they show 11-14hcp.
when pard opens 1X and rebids 2y their range is from 11- to a bad 17/18. (For this reason i tend to rebid nt with 2254 and 11-14 and rebid 2x with 15-17)With the above hand u simply cant afford to pass.... pard may have a hand that falls in the 15-17/18 category.

heck on a good day you may make 6c opposite


x xx   Akxxx   AKxxx  

even with the wasted spade king it
doesnt take much more than 22 clubs and 42 diamonds

Wouldnt it seem a tad silly to be in 2c making 5/6 ??

[bglover]

Well, i will only say that a 2n bid is likely to get a 3n bid. Now, having gotten that out of the way, I personally tend to rebid 1n as well with 11-14 OR if the hand has a no trump flaw, in which case I bid the my 2d suit...

I assume when partner bids 2c he is usually doing the same thing and I do not want to go looking for a 5 (or 6) club game on this bidding....

Another Stevism: Good bidders bid minor suit slams, bad bidders bid 3n. Does that mean I haven't bid my share of 3n's when I should be in 6m? Nope, matter of fact, did it today cuz I made a bad bid. But, I will say this and say it emphatically... You are MUCH MORE LIKELY to find that minor suit slam if there is a reverse or a jump shift. That's part of the reason why I advocate the reverse here...I SMALL lie conveys a lot of GOOD information and partner is well placed to make a GOOD decision.

[Codo]

Hi Eugene,

you made some wonderful points:

Well, one of my favorite phrases is that bridge is a partnership game, and those who lie when there is no point to lying are shooting themselves in the foot!
You may not like the words I use, but you are lying about the distribution of your hand when you reverse from 1C to 2D in a pickup American partnership with 15-16 HCP and equal length in the minors

Of course, but like you wrote later, sometimes you need a small lie in a standard system. Some mentioned  NT rebids despite 2254, you mentioned small lies about HCPS with strong two-suiters.
I must admit that my knowledge about SA is just from small informations in the internet and the games I played here.
So I was not aware, that it is said somewhere, that you promise unequal length.

But anyway and again: The hands, where we two would act different, are strong 5/5 two-suiters which are on the other hand not strong enough for a gameforcing opposite every single hand with 6 HCPs.
You (and your system) would decide on your own and create a game force with f.e. x,xx,AKJT9,AKJT9.
This will drive you sometimes in a tricky 3 NT or unmakable 5 of a minor.
I would jump shift only with 20+ points (HCPS+ Distributional), at least x,xx,AKQJT, AKJT9. Even if the difference is not so big, it is much safer to play then your example.

but then you must worry about partner having equal lengths and this affects your later bidding.  You may not think this is much of a loss, but it is a loss nonetheless (for reasons we have both described earlier).

I could not agree more.

However, neither of you have convinced me that 1C - 2D with a medium-strength opener is necessary to find games that will not be reached with 1D - 2C!

Because that is not the point. The point was, what I said earlier: I find it much more comftable and necessary to decide between hands with 17+ and 20 + then to tell pd at once that I have 6/5 or 5/5.

Kind Regards

Roland

[Yzerman]

I am of the school that you describe offensive hands with shape before hands loaded with hcp with special attention given to minor suit reverses.  You can group these hands into three categories;  (a) weak distributional minor hands,  ( intermediate distributional minor hands, and © strong distributional minor hands.  Cases (a) and ( take care of themselves, however the argument in this discussion relates to auction ©.

** Here is an example of reversing (1C-2D) with Intermediate minor suit hand and the consequences;

First of all there is the argument for when responder has a good hand.  You pick up the following hand (this is just one example in a field of thousands ming you);

Axx
Axxx
QJx
Kxx

Lets say your partner opens 1C and you respond 1H, now and partner rebids 2D.  Now given that you are playing lebensohl you have two options available (you can make argument for both);

3C - Describes a known 8+ card fit and forward going
2N - Asking further description

The hand that you had posed earlier;

A  
xx  
Aktxx  
qjxxx

I am not sure you can EVER recover in this auction now regardless of how the auction proceeds for the pattern has been totally misdescribed and you will undoubtedly land in a bad slam.

Another example is when partner has a BAD hand and you open the above hand 1C.  After 1C-1H-2D-2N (leb) you have the choice of losing options;

a) Bid 3D and force auction to 4C
Bid 3C and TOTALLY destroy the description of this hand and play a 52 or 62 club fit when 53 diamond fit available.

The moral of the story is that in the long run when you make phony 1C-2D reverse with the intermediate hand you are asking for trouble.  Sure there will be some hands that is effective for, however the majority of the hands partner will not be very happy with the bidding.

** Frequency is your favor when you open 1D-2C, you will MORE OFTEN get to a reasonable contract than bidding 1C-2D.

So how to best bid intermediate hands?  This is a matter of partnership agreements and style.  My general approach (which is consistent with the majority) is to bid the intermediate hand equivalent to the weak hand (i.e.  1D-2C).  

- If partner cant bid over 2C and you have the intermediate hand, trust me that you are in a nice place.

- If partner makes a simple preference to 2D you have a very natural bid of 3C in which implies extra values (you would not dare bid 3C with the weak 5/5 hand).  

- If partner can manage to do is bid 3C or 3D becomes a problem.  You must have faith in your partner that he/she will NOT overbid "soft" major cards and will overbid fitting minor cards when a fit is established.  This once again boils down to JUDGEMENT and trust in partner.  If partner bids 3C or 3D then its best to give up on NT a possible contract however you have very natural invites now (3C-4C and 3D-4D).