[jillybean]

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MP

[Hanoi5]

I blame North. But it really depends on the agreements. Is 3♦ showing a slamish hand? Then 3♠ shows interest and 4♠ is not good enough, South needed to know about the club control. South has a great hand though so maybe he had to go on over 4♠ if North showed his hand in their system.

By the way 4♦ is probably better, the slam in the minor is safer. I guess this was Mp though.

[Fluffy]

north was so very pessimistic obviously. cuebidding at the 4 level can't hurt, and south might just drive to diamond slam after hearing 4♣, specially if you have agreements on showing shortness not just cuebid on this aucion.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

If there is balme at all, it is North, South should
never move beyond game, if he got no real encouraging
sign.

But I am not sure, I would distribute a lot blame here,
North needs to know about the double fit, without special
agreements, it is very hard.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[the hog]

Clearly South! What on earth is 3S? When are you ever going to support Ds if not with this hand? Fwiw I play that a 4 level bid here shows a control and support for both suits

[Codo]

Ron is right -in his world, because he has the methods to separate the hands with fit for both suits from the ones with no fit and with just one fit.

I guess your methods are not so well defined. And as 3 ♦ is just game forcing, 3 ♠ is right, because 4♠ is the better scoring game and you play mps.


For missing the slam: 6 ♠has 5 spades tricks, one ace and 5 diamonds. It depends on the heart finesse, so it is no crime to miss this slam. The slam is a little worse then 50 %.

OTOH: 6 Diamonds basically needs diamonds 3-1 or 2-2 or the heart finesse which makes it about 95 %.
So, if you had been looking for a slam, you better had supported the diamonds first- like Ron said.

At mps and without the tools to show a double fit, I had bid 3 Spade to show some interesst. But to find a diamond slam after that start is tricky- to put it mildly.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

1) This type of hand comes up frequently in the Forums.
The latest was last month by CBGibson ( http://www.bridgebas...ts/page__st__20 )

2) posts # 5 ( Ron [ Hog ] ) and # 6 [ Codo ] point out that there are: " methods to separate the hands with fit for both suits from the ones with no fit and with just one fit. "
I too have expressed such methods before ( ad nauseum ), but I'm especially interested in Ron's where " a 4 level bid here shows a control and support for both suits " . ( 4H! here would show a ♥ Ctrl, agreeing both ♠ & ♦ ) .... and at the same time would DENY a ♣ Ctrl ! !
I wonder what the follow-ups are ? 6Ace-RKC or just bid 6D ? because as Codo said 6D is far superior to 6S ... and RKC may force you into 6S .

3) Ron's method would also keep you out of slam when warranted.
Let's say Opener was:

K 9 x
Q x x
A K x x
A J x

1NT - 2H!
2S - 3D
4C! ( advance Ctrl cue agreeing both suits ) - 4D ( waiting for another cue; assuming it is not RKC )
4S ( NO ♥ Ctrl ) - PASS

[han]

Having an agreement which allows you to show a fit for both suits is very nice, but lacking such a tool south has to bid 3S. If partner has slam interest then you want to play in diamonds, but if partner is merely looking for the best game then you want to show spade support.

So given the agreements (which I'm guessing did not contain the Hog's agreement) I think that south's bidding is automatic. North didn't try for slam so south couldn't cooperate. I think north is worth a slam try, I'd bid 4C over 3S. 4D is also possible unless that denies a club control, another partnership issue.

[ggwhiz]

I don't see why this is so tough with less sophisticated agreements.

The 3♦ bid is natural and game forcing. If South continues with 3♥ followed by (North) 3♠ then a 4♦ bid should show the better fitting hand than the 3♠ bid does.

The North hand is unlimited and I would bid 3♠ only to set trumps and give partner room with many lesser hands. The above likely leads to a 4♠ contract when you are missing the ♣ control and 6♦ here.

The only agreement we have in an auction like this is that a new suit by South is a super accept of (at least) one of North's suits, usually the second one, ie. move a small ♠ into another suit or even have 2 little and a max hand for diamonds.

[Codo]

It is so tough because at mps you want to be in 4 Spades not in 5 Diamonds.

[jillybean]

Thanks, very helpful replies. Could someone please explain how we should know a ♦ slam is superior to the ♠ slam? Is it simply the extra trump?

[ggwhiz]

With 3-card holdings in both round suits, you can eliminate any 2nd round losers in either suit if you are able to run 5 spade tricks after drawing trumps and having at least 1 left. You also can handle a bunch of 4-1 spade splits.

To Codo, we can still land in 4♠ instead of 5♦. If pard cues 4♥ over 4♦, that's what I'm bidding even sometimes with double honour. Not perfect but it takes a parlay to get to the wrong game.

[wank]

jillybean, on 2012-February-04, 11:34, said:

Thanks, very helpful replies. Could someone please explain how we should know a ♦ slam is superior to the ♠ slam? Is it simply the extra trump?

in isolation, just as 5-4s are sometimes inferior to 4-4s because of the prospect for a discard so 5-3s will often be inferior to 54s. firstly there's 2 discards available and secondly you can ruff the suit good when it's not solid

[TWO4BRIDGE]

jillybean, on 2012-February-04, 11:34, said:

Thanks, very helpful replies. Could someone please explain how we should know a ♦ slam is superior to the ♠ slam? Is it simply the extra trump?

If both slams are making, of course the major scores better than the minor at MP.
But the chances of making are better in the 4-4 or 5-4 fit ( Diam could be 4-4 ) because you have a better use of the 5-3 suit fit for discard(s)..... in this case the 2 losing ♥ can be discarded on the long ♠.

Edit: I didn't see wank's post as I was typing mine..... basically, the same answer.

This post has been edited by TWO4BRIDGE: 2012-February-04, 13:19

[the hog]

Even without such an agreement, I think Sth is to blame. If Sth is always going to bid 3S with 3 card support there, then why should Nth bother bidding a minor at all? You might as well transfer and bid 3NT. All that 3D seems to do is give away extra information to the opponents.

[MrAce]

the hog, on 2012-February-04, 18:23, said:

Even without such an agreement, I think Sth is to blame. If Sth is always going to bid 3S with 3 card support there, then why should Nth bother bidding a minor at all? You might as well transfer and bid 3NT. All that 3D seems to do is give away extra information to the opponents.

You are obviously playing this 3♦ as slamish hands. He is saying it can be also made by hands looking for the correct game, thus bidding 3♠ with 3 is normal and actually shows better hand than bidding 4♠ so they have enough space to investigate.

QJxxx
x
Axxxxx
x

I would xfer to ♠ and bid 3♦ with this hand too. You never know pd may have something like Kx Axxx KQxx Axx and slam can be cold, not that we will find it but at least we may end up playing 5♦ to see other table went down in 3 nt ?

[MickyB]

the hog, on 2012-February-04, 18:23, said:

Even without such an agreement, I think Sth is to blame. If Sth is always going to bid 3S with 3 card support there, then why should Nth bother bidding a minor at all? You might as well transfer and bid 3NT. All that 3D seems to do is give away extra information to the opponents.

I disagree completely. North could be certain he wants to play in 4S opposite three-card support, but unsure what the correct strain is opposite a doubleton spade. Besides that, most experts play that transfer then 3NT will usually be passed by opener when he is 4333.

Bids to show a fit in both suits may work well in theory, but when you finish in 4M they can be costly - my experience is that they often tell the hand on lead to try to give their partner a ruff in the suit he knows to be 4-4-4-1 around the table. I don't remember seeing it at the table, but it's not hard to imagine that he might even be able to work out to lead his trebleton, eg with AK doubleton in spades and Axx in diamonds.

[mike777]

jillybean, on 2012-February-03, 17:39, said:

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MP

I thought this was a 50/50 blame

North can rebid 4d over 3s

But as south I would bid 3h over 3d, agree Diamonds.

Though on the forums it seems 3h is more a nt try than agree diamonds that I was taught.

btw I dont think 3d needs be slamish at imps esp.

[Zelandakh]

Perhaps not strictly B/I but as Don say methods can help out alot here. It really is a good idea to have a way to show fits for both suits - a simple form is 3M = fit for M; 3NT = no fit; 1st other step = fit for m; higher bids = fit for both. In this case that would mean 3♥ = diamonds, 3♠ = spades, 3NT = neither, 4♣ and up = spades and diamonds. More complicated methods are also possible, especially when the major is hearts. Despite MickyB's point about giving a potential road map to the defence I think this kind of approach is worth it overall, particularly if you also pack a 6KCB club in your bag.

[phil_20686]

It should be always that bidding your minor shows a read desire to play there. Do not go looking for 44 minor fits with marginal 10 counts where 3N likely to be best. It follows from this that if partner has a real desire to play in 5m opposite a moderately acceptable hand with a fit, he is almost always bound to have some slam interest if you have a perfecto.

If you have sensible agreements south should have some way to show a "good hand" for spades at the very least. My defalut agreement with my partners is

3H = natural, 5 cards, denies 3 spades, so always 2533, in case partner 4351.
3S= 3 spades, not a complete pile.
4c/4h = good hand for spades, show values.
4d = agree diamonds.
4S = three spades, but a rubbish hand.

There are other sensible schemes, but this is easy to remember and mostly seems to get the job done. Here I would not be able to offer diamonds until the 6 level, but such is life. We would probably find 6d.

Obviously if you are keen on artificiality, having 3S = diamond agreement, and 4d = spade agreement is pretty good, makes it easier to bid slam in the minors by giving you a few extra bids.