[wank]

highlow i'm afraid you're rather mistaken.

if advancer has significantly more clubs than spades in a weak hand he'll choose to play in clubs, despite requiring an extra trick (on this auction he will often be 6-2 or 6-3 in the blacks). as such 'forcing to the 3-level' doesn't show any extra values in itself, though if they're playing lebensohl here then fine they have 2 ways to show clubs.

anyway, returning to the land of common sense, i agree that this hand is strong enough to cue, lebensohl or no lebensohl.

[Statto]

wank, on 2012-January-31, 23:01, said:

highlow i'm afraid you're rather mistaken.

What both of you say is true

[HighLow21]

When I typed the example hand earlier I meant to include 1 fewer clubs and 1 more diamond.

[the hog]

HighLow21, on 2012-January-31, 21:54, said:

Yes, he might, especially given that the TO double distorts your shape. It suggests at least 6 cards in the unbid suits.

Also, he would never respond 2S with that specific hand. He might though if he held (S) Jxxx (H) 10 (D) 9x © 10xxxxx.

Sorry, but it is nonsense to say that the 3 club bid shows extra values because it forces to the 3 level.
It is also incorrect to say that "Technically he was too strong for 1H overcall originally. Most modern bidders double first anytime they have 17+. Overcaller's actual hand was 17 HCP including no jacks at all, and 3 aces. It is a super-maximum overcall.".
If anything, the range for an overcall has increased. It is not surprising to see overcalls on 18 counts or so.

[Statto]

the hog, on 2012-January-31, 23:52, said:

Sorry, but it is nonsense to say that the 3 club bid shows extra values because it forces to the 3 level.

Not at all. If you are weak with a 3 card ♠ suit and a 4 card ♣ suit and can't stand the double then you might choose 2♠ rather than 3♣.

And by inference that means 3♣ shows something better than nothing, even if that something extra is a 5th ♣ in a Yarborough.

[Edited to add final sentence]

This post has been edited by Statto: 2012-February-01, 00:25

[the hog]

Statto, on 2012-February-01, 00:20, said:

Not at all. If you are weak with a 3 card ♠ suit and a 4 card ♣ suit and can't stand the double then you might choose 2♠ rather than 3♣.

Statto, he made a comment that 3C shows extra values. It DOES NOT! (Unless you play some form of Lebensohl, but that was never in the discussion). Does a 3C bid on xxx x xx xxxxxxx show extra values
You might bid 2S with 3S in a relatively flatish hand, sure, no one is denying that. With your quoted example of 3S and 4C, there are still 7 red cards outstanding. It seems to me that responder might be more liely to have a preference to H on a doubleton or pass 2DX on many 3-1-5-4 shapes.
Please read and interpret posts correctly before commenting.

[Statto]

the hog, on 2012-February-01, 00:27, said:

Does a 3C bid on xxx x xx xxxxxxx show extra values

Yes, it shows extra ♣ length. (I probably extended my previous post as u were replying )

It's either extra ♣ length or a few values to justify a normal 3♣ bid.

[Edit: added another sentence again]

This post has been edited by Statto: 2012-February-01, 00:36

[Statto]

the hog, on 2012-February-01, 00:27, said:

It seems to me that responder might be more liely to have a preference to H on a doubleton or pass 2DX on many 3-1-5-4 shapes.

Could not advancer have a pile of useless ♦ in a dreadful hand that in no way wants to defend 2♦X, or something approaching that?

Quote

Please read and interpret posts correctly before commenting.

I did, thanks. Did you really mean to say that?

[HighLow21]

I said more than a minimum, and that can include having extra shape or length. But usually, to go on to 3-level shows something beyond a horrible 4-3-3-3 hand with 2 jacks and out, for example. Given that the minimum for responding to a takeout double is 0 points and no good shape at all, going on to the 3 level requries SOMETHING, even if it's simply 5 clubs.

I'm not making this up, I'm just quoting Terence Reese on that. In a pinch I might go 3C if I had a worthless hand with 5 clubs and 3 spades, but not with a worthless hand with 4 clubs and 3 spades.

This is why I say the takeout double the 2nd time around is wrong. It only provides 2 card support for the other unbid major. I believe the overcaller bid wrong BOTH times; he's too strong for the original heart overcall, but I can see why the hand might be downgraded from a strong double to a pure overcall--no points in the 6-card suit.

However, it sets the overcaller up for a much worse call at his 2nd turn, the double, showing more support in the black suits (and definitely more spade support... as we have discussed, partner may be flat broke with a 4-card spade suit to the 10xxx).

[Phil]

Highlow: More free stuff for you today.

Suit symbols can be typed by using the brackets "[ ]" with sp, he, di and cl put in the middle.

♠, ♥, ♦, ♣.

(Warning: you will be tarred and feathered if you get cute and start stringing hearts together).

[whereagles]

aguahombre, on 2012-January-31, 17:52, said:

a 2C advance of the 1H overcall looks like what the OP describes it would be...constructive but non-forcing. Because South's 3C later must be less than this, it properly ended the auction in North's eyes. However, because 2C would be a borderline decision we would just chalk it up to "oh,well" if we didn't choose 2C and not consider it "screwing up", rather just South choosing the low road.

Well, if I were to bid over 1♥, it would be 1♠

(Unless pard overcalls michaels on 54s on a regular basis, of course.)

[FrancesHinden]

Statto, on 2012-February-01, 00:20, said:

Not at all. If you are weak with a 3 card ♠ suit and a 4 card ♣ suit and can't stand the double then you might choose 2♠ rather than 3♣.

And by inference that means 3♣ shows something better than nothing, even if that something extra is a 5th ♣ in a Yarborough.

[Edited to add final sentence]

I can't think of a hand with 3 spades and 4 clubs that would bid 2S. If I am 3=2=4=4 I bid 2H. If I am 3=1=5=4 I pass 2Dx. 2S will always show 4 of them. 3C will always show 5 of them.

[FrancesHinden]

It's always harder to assign blame when you can see both hands.

I gave the South hand to Jallerton, and he bid 3D in response to the double. He then couldn't decide whether to pull 3NT or not.
The North hand has a horrible problem on the first round. Don't tell anyone, but I also am tempted by the warped 1NT overcall. However, it's hard to say that 1H is technically wrong.