[Hanoi5]

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After an overcall the 2/1 bid is considered to be 11+. How do you set this up as game-forcing? Should North's hand be considered as game-forcing? Or was South attacked by a weak-opening-hand blues?

Bidding was edited to add 4♣.

[MrAce]

Hanoi5, on 2012-January-25, 19:41, said:

After an overcall the 2/1 bid is considered to be 11+.

No, it can be made as low as 7 hcp

xxx
x
xx
AQJxxxx or AKxxxx for example. It is 1 round forcing. Simply rebidding your suit later shows this type of hands.

You need to make another call except than 3♣. You can use 2 NT later as forcing since u could bid 2 NT natural instead of 2 clubs previous round for inv hands. I have to admit this weak opening and not matching hands sometimes may be problematic just like anything else in bridge. You can play xfer responses after overcall and all but thats not something i am familiar with, i am talking what i think is standart, which may not be the case for everyone.

[aguahombre]

Whether 3C was o.k. or not, it was North who passed the hand out at 3s.

What kind of blues the opener had don't seem to be relevent. If North wanted to bid again, he would have bid again.

[Codo]

To answer your question: With GF hands, I use X as multi purpose: Normal take out, or strong without a fit and no clear direction. With strong one suiters I use strong jumps.So, I had doubled and bid 3 Club over 2 Spade for a GF with clubs, but other strains are still possible (here NT or Hearts).
This would have lead to 3 NT, the worst game.

I would game force with the north hand.

Opposite 11+ but less then a GF, I had bid the south hand like he did. I had liked to show this hand somehow, but I had no convincing way...

[Hanoi5]

Actually North did bid 4♣ but that ended the auction.

[aguahombre]

Hanoi5, on 2012-January-27, 05:18, said:

Actually North did bid 4♣ but that ended the auction.

Then South cannot possibly do anything but bid 5C. The question in the OP about how to establish a game force when your agreements don't make the 2/1 already a game force is a good one. And, responder didn't work out a way to do it on this occasion with that hand (Nor would I. The 3C rebid didn't do it, but the alternatives suggested only make me glad our 2/1 in comp commits to game or 4m).

So, it was up to South to visualize some excuse for North's ♣ 3-peat at the 4-level where 5C could be wrong if North is somewhat sane. KQJ eighth and out? Nah. Jump in clubs at some time earlier with that. Only this given club suit with an outside trick or a solid seven bagger seems plausible.

[phil_20686]

I would have tried 3N over 3S. Since 3C was NF partner will realise I have long clubs + a spade stop and can run if he wants.

[nigel_k]

North's 3♣ is an underbid. If you take the view that partner likely has a stiff spade then it is probably better to bid 4♣. Or if partner might not have a stiff spade, you can try 3♠ in case he has Kx. If you have the general agreement that the cheapest new suit is a general force, then North can bid 3♦ but I don't know if that would help matters much.

I would have raised clubs with South instead of passing 3♠ but I don't really blame South for thinking that 11 tricks in clubs would be too hard after North bid only 3♣ earlier.

Also, it's quite a thin game though you would want to be there.

[whereagles]

Classically the definitions are (all non-jumps)

1x (1/2y) 2z = F1, 10+ HCP or equivalent
1x (1/2y) 3z = GF

This hand in particular is, in my opinion, GF.