[billw55]

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OK, a point of curiosity. Let's say you choose to open this hand first seat as I did. If you don't - please say so - but also please imagine what you consider a minimum opener and proceed.

At the table, it was IMP pairs, unfavorable vul, but this isn't my main point either. If scoring and vulnerability would affect your answers, by all means comment.

My main point is this. 3♦ is Bergen, so obviously this is a 3♠ call without the intervening 3♥ call. But now that it is there, what distinction would you make between 3♠, pass, and double? Any pet agreements, general principles, expected standards?

[wank]

i don't play it but 3♦ in original bergen is a limit raise, no? in that case it's certainly not obvious to me that it's time to sign-off. with ktx of hearts over the bid, i'd pot game perfectly happily.

as for the meaning of bids, there's no reason for X not to be penalties. it's normal in these situatons for passing to show interest and rebidding one's suit to show pony.

[paulg]

Larry Cohen discussed this auction on BBO vugraph, perhaps during the Cavendish last year, and gave the same answer as the previous poster.

Essentially, although you may play game-try doubles in certain other auctions, in this auction there is no loss to playing double as penalty and pass as the game try because you have already forced to three spades.

[mich-b]

Over a Bergen 3♦ , opener should, imo, bid game with almost anything except a minimum 5332 (particularly IMPs Vul).
I would bid game without the 3♥ overcall , so obviously would bid game after the 3♥ overcall.

As to standard meaning of other options here I agree with wank and paulg : Double = Penalties, Pass = invitational (forcing to 3♠) , 3♠ = sign-off.
I think I have seen the top Italian pairs use a double here as showing a ♥ shortage.. but it may have been a slightly different situation.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

#0 1S is fairly normal.
#1 Pass is forcing, 3D commited the partnership to play 3S.
Hence your general forcing pass agreement applies absend
anything special.
So X is penalty, 3S to play, pass may be either unsure what
to play or a hand with mild slam interest.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[mike777]

billw55, on 2012-January-26, 07:54, said:

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OK, a point of curiosity. Let's say you choose to open this hand first seat as I did. If you don't - please say so - but also please imagine what you consider a minimum opener and proceed.

At the table, it was IMP pairs, unfavorable vul, but this isn't my main point either. If scoring and vulnerability would affect your answers, by all means comment.

My main point is this. 3♦ is Bergen, so obviously this is a 3♠ call without the intervening 3♥ call. But now that it is there, what distinction would you make between 3♠, pass, and double? Any pet agreements, general principles, expected standards?

I play full bergen and this looks like an easy 4s call.

[billw55]

mich-b, on 2012-January-26, 08:50, said:

Over a Bergen 3♦ , opener should, imo, bid game with almost anything except a minimum 5332 (particularly IMPs Vul).
I would bid game without the 3♥ overcall , so obviously would bid game after the 3♥ overcall.

mike777, on 2012-January-26, 10:57, said:

I play full bergen and this looks like an easy 4s call.

Interesting. I was thinking that I could hardly construct a more minimum opener if I tried. But people seem to think otherwise. Where is the extra value for game coming from? What sort of hand would you need to hold, to sign off in 3♠ (and yet still open the bidding first seat) ? I guess mich-b specified 5332 shape. How about you mike? Is it that the ♥K looks good now? Or do you also bid game on this when RHO passes?

As for the actual hand. Partner held ♠xxxx ♥x ♦KQTxx ♣Kxx. I passed over 3♥, and he bid 4♠ which had no play at all. I thought perhaps both of us overbid a little, but nothing egregious. Is there any blame to hand out here, or is this just a normal result?

[mike777]

billw55, on 2012-January-26, 11:16, said:

Interesting. I was thinking that I could hardly construct a more minimum opener if I tried. But people seem to think otherwise. Where is the extra value for game coming from? What sort of hand would you need to hold, to sign off in 3♠ (and yet still open the bidding first seat) ? I guess mich-b specified 5332 shape. How about you mike? Is it that the ♥K looks good now? Or do you also bid game on this when RHO passes?

As for the actual hand. Partner held ♠xxxx ♥x ♦KQTxx ♣Kxx. I passed over 3♥, and he bid 4♠ which had no play at all. I thought perhaps both of us overbid a little, but nothing egregious. Is there any blame to hand out here, or is this just a normal result?

I open the OP hand all the time, thus 3d is 12-13 support pts for me. I would bid 4s even if the opp were silent at imps.

Your example is an easy 3c call for me....8-11.

[mr1303]

There's a saying in New York that 1 off is good bridge.

Change the hand slightly and game has excellent chances. It's unfortunate that partner's only working high card was the K of clubs.

[inquiry]

A general rule you can use on auctions like this....

IF you have found a fit and your partner made a bid that forces you to three of your major and the opponents intervene...

The weakest bid you make is to bid 3 of your agreed major (the level you were forced too).
Pass is stronger than bidding three of the major! For more on this read the partnership bidding at bridge by robson and segal (it is on the web as pdf for free).

[FrancesHinden]

I agree with the general rule that passing is stronger than bidding (although not everyone plays this, it is worth agreeing it). So double is penalties, pass is a game try and 3S is the weakest call.
Assuming 3D is a limit raise, I wouldn't bid game over it, I would probably bid 3H (random game try) myself.
Over 3H I would pass to show interest, partner would bid game, and we'd go off. I don't think it's worth 4S by itself.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

With so many foks here opening on less than "all elevens", I'm not surprised that you think you need a gametry over Upper Bergen.
What gametry is there for 1H - 3D! ?

I'm of the opinion that any new suit by Opener ( after Upper Bergen ) is a Ctrl cue bid ( yes, it is usually at the 4-level ) and slammish .

Thus, without interference:
1S - 3D!
3H = cue bid, not a mere gametry.

And, with the 3H interference, I would take the:
-- DBL as Ht-Ctrl showing ( could be shortness ), slammish
-- pass = no Ht Ctrl but solid opening, GF .
-- 3S as a minimum or sub-minimum opening, non-forcing.
-- 4C = cue bid, denying a Ht-Ctrl.
-- 4S = to play ( for whatever reason ) .