[SimonFa]

I've been reading about long/short suit game tries by opener but can't find anything similar when responder is invitational and there suit has been supported. I was wondering if there was reason why they can't be applied over the following sequence:

1m - 1M - 2M - ?

It strikes that they would be much better than the usual B/I sequence of responder just bidding 3M and hoping opener guesses correctly.

Is it practical to use help suit game tries in this sequence and if not is there a convention I have missed?

If we do use them what the pitfalls?

Thanks in advance,

Simon

[gwnn]

If you play that 2M can be made on 3, it's a nice (but uncommon) agreement to have 3♣/♦ as natural NF game-tries, showing just 4 cards in the major and a long suit. If you play that it has 4 always, then 3x can just show some length/values (long suit game tries) or a need for help (help suit game tries). Personally I prefer LSGT because it feels like a more optimistic message and to me seems to come up more often.

finally,

1m-1♥
2♥-2♠ is played as natural (4-4 or 4-5 in the majors) by most people, (some play it as a relay).

[SimonFa]

gwnn, on 2012-January-18, 02:41, said:

If you play that 2M can be made on 3, it's a nice (but uncommon) agreement to have 3♣/♦ as natural NF game-tries, showing just 4 cards in the major and a long suit. If you play that it has 4 always, then 3x can just show some length/values (long suit game tries) or a need for help (help suit game tries). Personally I prefer LSGT because it feels like a more optimistic message and to me seems to come up more often.

finally,

1m-1♥
2♥-2♠ is played as natural (4-4 or 4-5 in the majors) by most people, (some play it as a relay).

As a new partnership we stick to 4-card responses for simplicity so it shouldn't be a problem to use LSGT.

The sequence you give was the one that got me thinking about the problem. We ended in an inferior Heart contract when we were both 4/4 in the majors. From the explanations I have seen relay seems to be the predominant method but something I'll need to discuss with partner.

Thanks,

Simon

[Zelandakh]

Style matters here. If you routinely raise on 3 hearts with 4 spades then you might need 1m - 1♥; 2♥ - 2♠ as natural. However, many will simply rebid 1♠ with a 43(51) or 43(60) hand which frees up this 2♠ call for something else, for example as a check for min vs max and 3 vs 4 card support. As far as I know the sequence 1m - 1M; 2M - 3m is universally played as forcing. I have not seen the treatment suggested by gwnn here in 30 years or so but perhaps it is back in fashion again.

In the specific case where Opener will only raise on 4 cards I cannot see any major problem with HSGT, although you do have to be aware that 1m - 1M; 2M and 1M - 2M are not the same. In the former Responder is unlimited and therefore we are much more likely to have slam ambitions. You also want to be able to show a double fit. Perhaps you can achieve all of this by using 2NT as a HSGT in partner's suit and 3m as natural and forcing. The HSGTs can double as HSSTs too if you allow Opener to accept with something more useful than 4M. Then jumps can represent splinters and a jump to 3NT for starting a cue auction. You could optimise this better but it all seems workable.

[wank]

to the OP if you're wondering why people are advocating 3 card raises, it's because it's much better when unbalanced.

for example if the bidding goes 1C - 1S and opener is 3(41)5 without the values to reverse, he's got to rebid a potentially crappy 5 card suit if he can't support on 3.



even if he can bid his 2nd suit cheaply (i.e. without needing to reverse) this causes problems because he will have difficulty differentiating between point ranges.

Say the bidding goes 1D - 1H and opener is 1354, if you always rebid 2C, you're in a bit of a bind when responder gives preference to 2D. you want to show your heart support now as you'll often have a 53 fit and only a 52 diamond fit, but the 3 level is dangerous as responder may have a weak hand and only 4H. if you can't safely jump to 3H, there's no way to differentiate between a 13 count and a 17 count. good players tend to solve this problem by raising directly on minimum unbalanced hands and using the delayed raise to show extras. a 5431 hand with only 3 trumps is pretty much the same in playing strength as a 4333 hand with 4 trumps (which would raise) anyway.

some good players like a style whereby you raise on 3 even more often than this - AWM raises on pretty much anything except 4333 with 3 trumps I think.