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1S-1N, 2H-4D Playing 2/1 with 1N forcing

Poll: 1S-1N, 2H-4D (25 member(s) have cast votes)

What does 4D show?

  1. splinter for hearts (25 votes [100.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 100.00%

  2. invitational with diamonds (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

What does 1S-1N, 2H-3D show?

  1. to play with diamonds (16 votes [64.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 64.00%

  2. invitational with diamonds (9 votes [36.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 36.00%

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#1 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2012-January-13, 16:13

Playing 2/1 with 1N forcing. Interested in what is standard and whether this depends on partnership agreement.
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#2 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2012-January-13, 16:18

I haven't voted, because I play the first auction as hearts + diamonds, not a splinter - once you don't have spade support, you are much more likely to have length in a side suit than shortage.

The second depends, I think, on what your other options are in response to 1S. I play this sequence as invitational with diamonds, because I don't play 1S-3D as showing that hand; it is more useful to be able to show an invitational hand than a weak hand (or at least it is when you are focussed more on IMPs than MPs).
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#3 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2012-January-13, 16:18

4♦ splinter is std, 3♦ means what 1♠-3♦ doesn´t show. If 1♥-3♦ doesn´t show diamonds then... LOL, it shows diamonds! :)
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#4 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2012-January-13, 16:31

Our 1S-3D is Bergen.
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#5 User is online   mike777 

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Posted 2012-January-13, 18:20

View Poststraube, on 2012-January-13, 16:31, said:

Our 1S-3D is Bergen.



me to, going through 1nt shows invite hand for me. That means on this auction I dont have a way to show a weakish hand with long d.


4d I would take as splinter for h. granted a rare auction.

maybe:

xx...AQxxx..x...KJxxx
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#6 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2012-January-13, 19:18

I now prefer to play 4 of a minor as showing a suit and a fit, with 3N as a slam try without a good minor to bid 4 of a minor.
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#7 User is offline   MickyB 

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Posted 2012-January-13, 19:40

View PostJLOGIC, on 2012-January-13, 19:18, said:

I now prefer to play 4 of a minor as showing a suit and a fit, with 3N as a slam try without a good minor to bid 4 of a minor.


That makes sense, for a while I've played 4m as splinters and 3N as a spade splinter but this sounds better.
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#8 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2012-January-13, 23:16

View PostMickyB, on 2012-January-13, 19:40, said:

That makes sense, for a while I've played 4m as splinters and 3N as a spade splinter but this sounds better.


Yeah I think your way is "standard" but not best
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#9 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2012-January-13, 23:19

I thought it's standard that 4D shows diamonds+hearts, slam interest.
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#10 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2012-January-13, 23:32

Quote

I thought it's standard that 4D shows diamonds+hearts, slam interest.


I have no opinion as I've never thought about this situation (does it ever comes up ?) but imo the most important information you could convey is splinter in spades, so one of the 3NT/4C/4D should be that. I doubt splinter in minor or diamonds+fit will ever help anyway so I don't care about it.

2nd should be to play imo.
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#11 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2012-January-14, 03:37

1S - 1NT!
2H - 4m

When opener has limited his hand with the Majors after a 1NT!( forcing ) response, it makes no sense ( to me at least ) to be playing in a minor at the 4-level. Just how good can that minor suit be with little or no support from Opener ?

By prior agreement 4m! ( 4C or 4D ) makes more sense as either:
--- a) a Splinter for ♥ or
--- b ) a FSJ ( fit-showing-jump )... as Justin suggested.

Since many ONLY play FSJ in competition OR as a passed hand, that leaves splinter.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
1S - 1NT!
2H - 3m = weak or invitational by prior agreement

If playing Bergen , then you don't have the 1S - 3m as a natural option.
So, in the above 3m rebid sequence after 1NT!, I would define it as " to play " .
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"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

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#12 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2012-January-14, 03:51

I think the default is a fit bid. That's what it meant before splinters existed. When they invented splinters, there was no reason to change the meaning of this sequence, so it didn't change.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#13 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2012-January-15, 14:27

I'm not sure what 4D shows, but it certainly shows hearts. An invitational hand with diamonds must find a bid below 3NT.
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#14 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2012-January-15, 16:00

View Postwhereagles, on 2012-January-15, 14:27, said:

I'm not sure what 4D shows, but it certainly shows hearts. An invitational hand with diamonds must find a bid below 3NT.



Yeah, but what would that bid be? The poll was unanimous that 4D was a splinter, but a majority play that 3D is to play. So what do I do with...

x Ax KQxxxxxx xx

or tweak the hand until you have a problem not having an invitational diamond bid available.

Personally, I like 3N as an unspecified splinter for hearts (4C can ask) and 4m for such a hand as the above.
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#15 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2012-January-15, 17:51

View Poststraube, on 2012-January-15, 16:00, said:

The poll was unanimous that 4D was a splinter

Many of us were disenfrancised by your choice of poll options.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#16 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2012-January-15, 19:16

View Postgnasher, on 2012-January-15, 17:51, said:

Many of us were disenfrancised by your choice of poll options.


What other options would you have liked?
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#17 User is online   mike777 

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Posted 2012-January-15, 19:41

View Poststraube, on 2012-January-15, 16:00, said:

Yeah, but what would that bid be? The poll was unanimous that 4D was a splinter, but a majority play that 3D is to play. So what do I do with...

x Ax KQxxxxxx xx

or tweak the hand until you have a problem not having an invitational diamond bid available.

Personally, I like 3N as an unspecified splinter for hearts (4C can ask) and 4m for such a hand as the above.



As I mentioned I dont have a way to show a weakish hand with long d on this auction.

What do you do when it comes up?

You make a judgement call to overbid or not

with your example my guess is my pards would bid 3d and live with it. Feel free to make it weaker until at somepoint they wont bid 3d(inv).
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#18 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2012-January-15, 20:13

Thanks for everyone's input.
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#19 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2012-January-15, 21:29

View Poststraube, on 2012-January-15, 19:16, said:

What other options would you have liked?

Did you read the thread?
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#20 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2012-January-16, 06:17

View Poststraube, on 2012-January-15, 16:00, said:

Yeah, but what would that bid be? The poll was unanimous that 4D was a splinter, but a majority play that 3D is to play. So what do I do with...

x Ax KQxxxxxx xx

or tweak the hand until you have a problem not having an invitational diamond bid available.


Well, a 3D rebid is slightly ambigous as to strength, so some of the lesser invites can bid 3D. Top ones I guess can bid 2NT.

The hand you shown is worth a 2/1 GF. Having bid 1NT I suppose the best rebid now is 5D.
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