[Cyberyeti]

 rhm, on 2012-January-13, 05:31, said:

Surprisingly +200 was worth 3 IMPs. Many went down in 2NT and 3NT.

You shouldn't really go down in 2N on this auction, although you pick up against +120. After the spades are played initially you lead a club, you know both kings are onside at this point as E will have shown up with enough in spades that he can't have a K as well. Cash the ♣Q and whichever red suit you exit in playing ace and another, and whether you guess right or wrong which heart to exit with, as K♦ is doubleton and K♥ onside, you will only lose 3 spades, a club and a red suit trick.

1Nx makes a lucky 6 tricks too other than on double dummy defence, which could contribute to your score.

[lamford]

Partner's jack of clubs is a big card, giving 3NT a chance, and I think pass is clear. I would expect the responder to have had that card for his 1D response.

[gnasher]

 Cyberyeti, on 2012-January-13, 07:28, said:

You shouldn't really go down in 2N on this auction, although you pick up against +120. After the spades are played initially you lead a club, you know both kings are onside at this point as E will have shown up with enough in spades that he can't have a K as well. Cash the ♣Q and whichever red suit you exit in playing ace and another, and whether you guess right or wrong which heart to exit with, as K♦ is doubleton and K♥ onside, you will only lose 3 spades, a club and a red suit trick.

That deserves a nitpick. If you find yourself exiting from ♥AQx, and you play ace then a low one, East will overtake his partner's jack with the king, then endplay you with a third heart, so you lose two red-suit tricks.

However, I don't see how you can reach this position. Say it goes spade lead, club losing to the ace, three more rounds of spades. Presumably you discard a heart on this, and they now exit with a club. At this point you have to play diamonds, not hearts - if you try to exit by playing ♥AQ, you'll find that you're still on lead. (Another play that would work is to discard ♣Q on the last club, then play ♥AQ - with ♥8 still in your hand, they can't duck effectively.)

[MrAce]

 rhm, on 2012-January-13, 05:31, said:

I can not see how to reach 4♥ unless North bids it. .....
.......
The only realistic game chances must be in hearts.
The trouble with 3♥ is that partner is unlikely to cooperate. I can not imagine raising 3♥ to game with the

Rainer Herrmann

I agree that hard to reach game unless N bids it and i admit (as a 3♥ bidder) we also would not be able to reach game.

But i still defend bidding with N hand over 2♥. Not to find a game against this trash pd has, but he could easily be slightly better than this and one of the opps was joking. As i said i dont have much sympathy to excuses at IMP such as "pd had only 2 spades instead of 3 and a finesse worked and they hide their spade fit and etc etc..." We are not offering slam or grandslam for gods sake, we are ofering game at IMPs and vulnerable, and we are doing it with VALUES, i mean real values, 22 hcp. Imo bidding game by himself as north is optimistic but i also think just passing is pessimistic at IMPs.

Of course people have different views about the 2♥ bid. Take the 5th heart from south hand and make it a spade, i would never bid 2♥ and pass 1NT DBL. I know pd doesnt promise 4 card ♥ and he has a big and probably balanced hand.

[Fluffy]

If you had a slightly better hand such as ♠AQx ♥AQx ♦AQJ10x ♣Kx there is a way to reach game: Bid 1NT over 1♣, if partner shows 5c major bid game, if not you are in a safe contract at least.

Much more practical than cuebidding and cuebidding endlessly getting no info

[MrAce]

 Fluffy, on 2012-January-13, 16:23, said:

If you had a slightly better hand such as ♠AQx ♥AQx ♦AQJ10x ♣Kx there is a way to reach game: Bid 1NT over 1♣, if partner shows 5c major bid game, if not you are in a safe contract at least.

Much more practical than cuebidding and cuebidding endlessly getting no info

Sorry but I nominate this as one of the worst suggestions in forums so far. Overcall 1NT with 22 hcp...and bid game when pd xfers...forget about a lot of hands that he passes ...wow.

How about this ? u hold

xx Jxxxx xx xxxx or
xxx Jxx xx xxxxx or
xxx Jxxx xxx xxx

1st hand - Pd dbles 1♣,, u bid 1♥, he cues 2♣ u bid 2♥ and u bid 4 if he still raises to 3
And with the second or third hand u bid 1♥, then bid 2♥ over cue, and pass if he bids 3♥ and hope for best.

Much more practical than overcalling 1NT with 22 hcp, no ?

[Cyberyeti]

 gnasher, on 2012-January-13, 07:51, said:

That deserves a nitpick. If you find yourself exiting from ♥AQx, and you play ace then a low one, East will overtake his partner's jack with the king, then endplay you with a third heart, so you lose two red-suit tricks.

However, I don't see how you can reach this position. Say it goes spade lead, club losing to the ace, three more rounds of spades. Presumably you discard a heart on this, and they now exit with a club. At this point you have to play diamonds, not hearts - if you try to exit by playing ♥AQ, you'll find that you're still on lead. (Another play that would work is to discard ♣Q on the last club, then play ♥AQ - with ♥8 still in your hand, they can't duck effectively.)

You're quite right on this, but the point remains if you know opener has an opening hand and his partner leads Q♠ you shouldn't go off in 2N. You can also I think pitch a diamond if you're going to exit with the right heart, but club may well be best.

[Fluffy]

 MrAce, on 2012-January-13, 16:43, said:

Sorry but I nominate this as one of the worst suggestions in forums so far. Overcall 1NT with 22 hcp...and bid game when pd xfers...forget about a lot of hands that he passes ...wow.

How about this ? u hold

xx Jxxxx xx xxxx or
xxx Jxx xx xxxxx or
xxx Jxxx xxx xxx

1st hand - Pd dbles 1♣,, u bid 1♥, he cues 2♣ u bid 2♥ and u bid 4 if he still raises to 3
And with the second or third hand u bid 1♥, then bid 2♥ over cue, and pass if he bids 3♥ and hope for best.

Much more practical than overcalling 1NT with 22 hcp, no ?

You are arguing against yourself? lol. 1NT is much better contract than 3♥ on the second and third. And 4♥ is reached by the best hand on first.

If you think practical is to "show my hand" I think you are very wrong, practical is to reach sensible contracts.

[MrAce]

 Fluffy, on 2012-January-14, 04:54, said:

You are arguing against yourself? lol. 1NT is much better contract than 3♥ on the second and third. And 4♥ is reached by the best hand on first.

If you think practical is to "show my hand" I think you are very wrong, practical is to reach sensible contracts.

And what would my practical friend Fluffy play when pd has 3-4-5-6 hcp flat hands i wonder A Sensible 1NT!!!

Man...just when i think there is nothing left to shock me in these forums, there is always another. Overcall 1NT with 22, practical bid. And all this for being able to stop in 1NT when we have 22 hcp in one hand !!!

Good luck with practical bids and sensible contracts m8

[Fluffy]

Your only argument seems to be, It can't be right to bid 1NT on 22!!

I think you are overstimating your chances of making 3NT when partner has 2-4 HCP. Clubs will be wide open from the start, and you will have from zero to one entries to dummy. You also fail to see how horrible a 3 level contract is with 22 opposite nothing (wich is more likelly than partner having 5)

I don't claim that 1NT is the normal bid with 22, just that its the best action with 3-3 majors and a lot of tenaces behind the opener.

[straube]

 Fluffy, on 2012-January-16, 05:14, said:

Your only argument seems to be, It can't be right to bid 1NT on 22!!

I think you are overstimating your chances of making 3NT when partner has 2-4 HCP. Clubs will be wide open from the start, and you will have from zero to one entries to dummy. You also fail to see how horrible a 3 level contract is with 22 opposite nothing (wich is more likelly than partner having 5)

I don't claim that 1NT is the normal bid with 22, just that its the best action with 3-3 majors and a lot of tenaces behind the opener.

A 1N overcall is absurd. Partner could have 7 points and pass.

[ArtK78]

 Fluffy, on 2012-January-16, 05:14, said:

Your only argument seems to be, It can't be right to bid 1NT on 22!!

Seems like a pretty sound argument to me.

[mikeh]

 Fluffy, on 2012-January-16, 05:14, said:

Your only argument seems to be, It can't be right to bid 1NT on 22!!

I think you are overstimating your chances of making 3NT when partner has 2-4 HCP. Clubs will be wide open from the start, and you will have from zero to one entries to dummy. You also fail to see how horrible a 3 level contract is with 22 opposite nothing (wich is more likelly than partner having 5)

I don't claim that 1NT is the normal bid with 22, just that its the best action with 3-3 majors and a lot of tenaces behind the opener.

Sorry, Fuffy, but I think you are really wrong on this one. I agree (I think I am agreeing with you) that this hand isn't worth 22 hcp...that KQ tight in clubs is a horrible holding on this auction, but this hand is still worth a LOT more than 15-18.

We have to accept that sometimes making the system bid will lead to poor results when partner holds a hand that disappoints us, but the alternative leads to insanity....it's fine to upgrade or downgrade a hand based on rational assumptions, but how can you possible downgrade this to 18? And unless you do, system discipline requires that you double. Partner can have 5 or 6 points here....you can't know LHO is responding over your double....and why would he move over 1N with 5 or 6 hcp and no long suit?

I mean, make the club Q an 'x', and we'd think we had a good 19, wouldn't we?

[Fluffy]

I'm not downgrading anything, I am just assuming that the key feature to make game is that partner has 5 card majors when we are so strong with 3-3 majors. And the fact partner has 1 or 3 points is secondary, and since doubling and cuebidding doesn't help you to know if he has 3, 4 or 5, 1NT helps you better. And i even gets you to a great contract in case partner doesn't have 5c major.

Going to the 3 level when partner is broke is so bad, that reaching some very unlikelly games when partner has something doesn't compensate