[Free]

I have a new partner, but we seem to have a completely different view on weither a Double is penalty or takeout in certain situations. Can someone explain it in a quite simple way when a Dbl is penalty and when it's takeout, responsive,...?

Just to give you example hands where it went wrong:

1NT - pass - pass - 2♦
Dbl* - all pass
I thought it was penalty, he thought it was takeout

1♠ - pass - 2♥ - Dbl
2NT - Dbl* - pass - 3♣
pass - 3NT - all pass
I thought it was responsive, bid your best minor, he thought it was penalty (since he had 15-17, but no stopper and no 1NT overcall)

[joker_gib]

1. Basically take out with short (2) ♦, of course you can transform it with max and ♦ opposition !

2. He can pass or choose the minor you ask with your first dbl. Instead, he dbl so it shows values and it's purely penalty oriented I think

[Chamaco]

A general rule states that most doubles opposite a pard who has always passed are intended as takeout.
This rule can be relaxed as the bidding level gets to the 3/4 level, so one partnership agrement shpuld state thru which level doubles opposite a silent pard will be t/o.

Quote

1NT - pass - pass - 2♦
Dbl* - all pass
I thought it was penalty, he thought it was takeout

If we give this double the meaning of penalty, opener should "see" that he can take 7 tricks on its own even if pard has a yarborough: this is almost impossible, so better use (= higher frequency and less dangerous) the double as competitive t/o

Quote

1♠ - pass - 2♥ - Dbl (1)
2NT - Dbl* (2) - pass - 3♣
pass - 3NT - all pass

Double (1)
In "standard" approach, double here is reserved only for very distributional hands.
If opps know how to bid, they have the balance of power, so doubling on hcp only (no matter whether for penalty or t/o) is plain foolish, since pard will be broke, the more so if we hold 15+ hcp.

Playing this double as penalty is VERY risky: both opps are unlimited, and you just give then the "fielder's chouice"
- they may as well redouble and catch you, or pass in 2H X with overtricks.
- or they may just reach the par contract in the alternative case
- they'll play double dummy whatever the final contract

Playing the double as "normal" takeout, with no extra distribution, is also crazy: they'll still have the choice among many attractive possibilities.


The double here should show a very distributional hands: e.g. 55 (or a VERY good 54 with shortness) with concentrated values, inviting pard to jam the auction at a higher level.


Double (2)

It is a consequence of double (1).
Because double by pard is not based on power but distribution, the double is substantially responsive, saying to pard you have something and support for both suits.
Proposing to double opps does not sound a good idea in such sequence, most of the time they'll hold the balance of power.

Only reasonnI can think of a penalty here is to expose a psyche.

[Fluffy]

Ok a couple of tips:

-Doubling NT contracts is always penalty, with the exception of 1M-p-1NT-X (actually 1NT isn´t designed to play so not really an exception).

-Limited hands can´t make a penalty double at low level opposite negative hands.

Therefore if you open 1NT and partner passes, or you rebid 1NT and parter stays in partscore and you double it is not penalty.

-There are certain bids that make all of our doubles penalty: any redouble (except support redouble), any double of an artificial bid (michaels for example) where the artificial bid is not natural. These doubles (I name them power doules) promise our side is stronger than theirs and make our passes forcing and all our doubles penalty.

[joker_gib]

Chamaco, on Oct 20 2004, 06:45 AM, said:

Double (2)

It is a consequence of double (1).
Because double by pard is not based on power but distribution, the double is substantially responsive, saying to pard you have something and support for both suits.

If I have support for partner suit, I support and I prefer much more to conserve this kind of double to show a misfitting hand with points (partner can sit or run!)

[Chamaco]

joker_gib, on Oct 20 2004, 12:03 PM, said:

Chamaco, on Oct 20 2004, 06:45 AM, said:

Double (2)

It is a consequence of double (1).
Because double by pard is not based on power but distribution, the double is substantially responsive, saying to pard you have something and support for both suits.

If I have support for partner suit, I support and I prefer much more to conserve this kind of double to show a misfitting hand with points (partner can sit or run!)

I just wonder how many times are we supposed to have points ?
Opps have opened and bid a 2/1, pard made a t/o dbl.

Assuming nobody is psyching, if I hold hcp, pard made a distributional double (say a 6-5), so holding a misfitting hand I'd better pass: if we are in a misfitting hand and he has to run, he will play doubled a misfit hand at a 3+ level, usually not a lovely choice.

As I said, the only reason I can think of for playing this double as penalty is to expose a psyche. Otherwise, I'll almost never have a hand suitable for double, and if I have it, it means pard is light, in misfit, and I am putting him in trouble at a higher level...

[inquiry]

Quote

I have a new partner, but we seem to have a completely different view on weither a Double is penalty or takeout in certain situations.  Can someone explain it in a quite simple way when a Dbl is penalty and when it's takeout, responsive,...?

Here is the VERY SIMPLE way to explain how I play doubles (frequent readers will be tired of reading this by now)....

1) Is the double conventional? 1NT-(2C)-DBL <<--- I play as stayman,

The the conventional meaning stays.

2) IF the double is NOT conventional, then have we found a fit or an implied fit? If so, then the double is penalty oriented (optional). IF one of us preempts, we have found a fit. If one of use uses a major suit or minor suit transfer, then we have found a fit. Did one of us make a takeout double and the other bid an unbid major, then we have found an assumed fit.

3) If we have not found a fit, then the double is takeout.

Thats it. No level involved.. .ALLL doubles without found fit are for "takeout".. of course the higher the level, the more likely they will be left in.

In your examples.
1NT - pass - pass - 2♦
Dbl* - <<------ is takeout as we have not found a fit

1♠ - pass - 2♥ - Dbl
2NT - Dbl* <<<----- is takeout because we haven't found a fit.. .partner can convert to penaltly of course if he is suitably strong, as this double shows some values obviously.

[Gerben47]

Agree with your partner on both.
1st hand) Partner has only passed so I think this should be T/O. It is possible to play this as penalty but I doubt it is worthwile.

2nd hand) They bid 2NT double is penalty, partner thinks opps have 23 HCP at most and their suits are not breaking.