[32519]

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This deal came up about an hour ago. West chose to open 2NT which was raised to 3NT by East. One can argue the merits of East's bid, however after the obvious ♦ lead from North the contract was doomed (2NT was also doomed after a ♦ lead).

Was West unlucky that East never held more ♦? Or is there a better way to bid these dreaded 4441 hands? Multi with the strong options (including the 4441 17-24 HCP) would not have helped here either. The bidding would have to be taken to level 4 to show the 4441 hand pattern. A 4-level contract will fail as well.

Any thoughts?

[manudude03]

2NT is fine, East must bid stayman if anything though. When I played multi with the 4441 option, it would have gone

2D-2H
3C-3S-pass for us (3C shows the 4414 and 3S says no game unless opener had a 2C opener.

[jmcw]

2NT, All pass.

East has insufficient values to bid and little reason to believe a 3 level contract might make.

[bluecalm]

Quote

2NT is fine, East must bid stayman if anything though.

Really ? It looks like easy pass to me.
Maaaaybe if 2NT is 21-23 range but it's still close.

[manudude03]

 bluecalm, on 2012-January-03, 14:50, said:

Really ? It looks like easy pass to me.
Maaaaybe if 2NT is 21-23 range but it's still close.

I was about to edit it and bold the "if anything" part. I do reply very aggressively to 2NT though.

[EricK]

With this shape and a singleton honour, it seems fine to risk a 1♣ opening. There is a slight risk of missing a makable game if partner doesn't respond and neither opponent bids, but not only will it prevent us getting too high if partner is broke, it also might make it easier for us to find a slam in one of our suits (especially ♣).

[straube]

Maybe if you had a non-natural system...

[aguahombre]

 EricK, on 2012-January-03, 16:09, said:

With this shape and a singleton honour, it seems fine to risk a 1♣ opening. There is a slight risk of missing a makable game if partner doesn't respond and neither opponent bids, but not only will it prevent us getting too high if partner is broke, it also might make it easier for us to find a slam in one of our suits (especially ♣).

There is more to the 4-4-4-1 hand pattern being "hated" than just the systemic issues. These hands play poorly (sim to your hearts' delight re that point); we have frequently been content to pretend our stiff facecard is the duce, when deciding the opening bid. It indeed feels just fine to open this hand 1♣.

However, those who dogmatically spout never bidding Stayman with flat hands might want to rethink that opener might not also be flat.

[32519]

 straube, on 2012-January-03, 18:00, said:

Maybe if you had a non-natural system...

Straube, I love your sense of humour. This post is surely referring to the one you made in the Non-Natural Systems Forum.

I'd love to hear how the bidding would have proceeded using a Non-Natural system to stay out of trouble.

[awm]

Playing a natural system, I would open 1♣ on this hand. Probably the auction will go 1♣-Pass-Pass-1♦-Dbl-Some diamond raise. I will either end up in a spade partial or defending a large number of doubled diamonds. Either of these seems like a pretty good result.

Playing my strong club system, I will open 1♣ strong. If opponents are passing I get 1♣ - Pass - 1♦ (GF or 0-4) - Pass - 1♠ - Pass - 2♠ (0-4 with 3-4 spades; if 4♠ then no shortage). I think I will play in 2♠. If opponents bid over me there will be some takeout doubles but again I will probably land in a spade partial or defending a large number of doubled diamonds.

Opening 2NT on these hands is usually a mistake. You can so easily play in the wrong partial, or the wrong game, or miss a slam, etc. If you open 1♣ and partner responds you will usually do very well, and if you open 1♣ and partner passes you will often do better (i.e. than playing 2NT), and if you open 1♣ and opponents bid it is easier to describe your hand by takeout doubling diamonds than anything else.

[straube]

 32519, on 2012-January-03, 20:33, said:

Straube, I love your sense of humour. This post is surely referring to the one you made in the Non-Natural Systems Forum.

I'd love to hear how the bidding would have proceeded using a Non-Natural system to stay out of trouble.

Yeah, I was having fun, but I can't really deliver any system magic here. I've seen some non-natural methods of identifying strong 4441s, but it's quite costly in terms of sequence allocation to do so; one has to use four bids to identify just the singleton and then more bids identifying the hand as a 4441 and the hand's approximate strength. One can get pretty high and wind up in a misfit opposite a yarborough. More common are methods that identify strong 4441s with both minors. This is a compromise of sorts. We've decided not to give weight to identifying strong 4441s and treat them as balanced. There's partial compensation in that these hands often play as balanced and so many of them have stiff honors, too.

I read Adam's post and his method works very well here. His 1D 2-way response lets opener start showing shape early which is useful for both slam and part score auctions.

Our system would start 1C and partner would give a double negative response of 1S which kills any chance for finding such a fit. The double negative hand is unlikely to have as much as a king or two queens. I think our opener would retreat to 1N which shows 16 on the low side to 21 on the high; naturally, I can super-accept if partner transfers me to a major. I usually like to downgrade stiff kings opposite a known weak hand because we have less transportation and partner's honors in that suit are consequently worth less; I can't get there to enjoy them. Make my hand just slightly stronger and after 1C-1S, I'll stayman with 2C and hear partner rebid 2H (showing spades). I'll bid 3S and partner will have to put me in game. Opener is showing a good 21-bad 23.

I'm guessing Meckwell would open 2N with that hand (like good 19 to bad 21 I think), but for the same pattern of slightly lower or higher strength their bidding would go 1C-1D, 1H-1S, and then 2 or 3 spades depending. Their 1S is natural and forced whenever responder doesn't hold four hearts (or 3 hearts and 6-7 hcps which bids 2D first and then 2S if opener retreats to 2H). Again, I'm not sure how Meckwell treats this hand, but I think a lot of systems would permit responder to show spades over a natural 1H rebid.

[rhm]

 aguahombre, on 2012-January-03, 18:44, said:

However, those who dogmatically spout never bidding Stayman with flat hands might want to rethink that opener might not also be flat.

Obviously if you knew that notrump opener was unbalanced, you would never shun Stayman with a 4 card major.
Those playing Puppet often never shun Puppet when holding a 3 card major.
It is a question of gain versus losses.
I consider those dogmatic, who will never bypass a chance of missing an 8 card fit in the major.
There is a little bit more to this game than being able to count to eight, though those who can count to thirteen are above average in my experience.

Rainer Herrmann

[Fluffy]

1♣-1[DI[]
1♥-1♠
1NT-pass

16+ | 7-
20+ | 4-
20-21

[whereagles]

I've been using the following scheme to deal with the 4441 pattern and find it to be effective:

- If the singleton is Q or higher: treat it as balanced (the case here).
- If the singleton is J or below: pretend the best of your 4-card minor suit(s) is a 5-card one and act accordingly.

Sure, I got into a hopeless 6D slam on the 4-3 fit once but that's the worst thing that ever happened in like 6 years. As for the other hundreds of 4441s I held, it was all plain sailing.

[Zelandakh]

 32519, on 2012-January-03, 20:33, said:

I'd love to hear how the bidding would have proceeded using a Non-Natural system to stay out of trouble.

For me the bidding would start 1C - 1D; 1S, where opener has shown either an unbalanced game-force or 18+ 3-suited and Responder has shown less than game-forcing values. Assuming you treat Responder as a double-negative now (usually 0-2ish but this hand qualifies) the rebid is 2C. Now 2D from Opener shows the 3-suiter and Responder bids 2S which is the final contract since West has nothing extra. Naturally I would expect the opps to be competing here.

Note that in a well-designed 3-suited structure it should not be necessary to identify the shortage opposite a very weak hand. In this case Responder can simply make some kind of pass/correct weakness bid. If you do not identify strength before showing the hand type then you do need to devote a step to a relay response for stronger hands. The method above allows 3-suited hands to start at different levels (2C, 2D or 2NT) depending upon the strength Responder shows (and correspondingly the amount of space required). It is "expensive" in this sequence only in that GF hands with diamonds cannot start with 2♦ (but never higher than after a strong 2C opening).

[32519]

I have another idea on how to deal with a 17-24 HCP 4441 hand. It will only be available for use by players who play Multi.

Here’s the basic idea:
1.) Remove the 4441 option from your 2♦ opening bid.
2.) The strong balanced 20-22 HCP option is retained.
3.) Dump the 2NT bid which promises 5-5 in the minors and 5-10 HCP. This must surely be one of the poorer uses for a bid in the current Multi. All you have succeeded in doing is convey the hand layout and HCP distribution to the opponents making it easier for them to balance and/or the subsequent play of the hand. Partner is now marked for any required finesse in the majors. Opener is marked for any required finesse in the minors.
4.) Now that you have dumped 2NT for the minors, use it instead to show the 4441 hand pattern 17-24 HCP.
Here is a proposal for the continuation bidding sequence –
3♣ = terrible hand (Say 0-5 HCP. This can be adjusted according to partnership agreement). Subsequent to the 3♣ bid, both partners now start bidding 4-card suits up the line in search of a fit. Finding a 4-4 fit won’t always be possible. You will have plenty of hands where either partner will make the decision to signoff in a 4-3 fit. As soon as opener bypasses any suit, responder knows immediately that that is the suit with the singleton.
3♦ = say 6+ HCP game force whenever opener holds 19+ (18?) HCP. If opener’s singleton is a major he bids the singleton on level 3. If opener’s singleton is a minor, the first choice would be to bid 3NT (this may quite easily be the last game contract which can make). Responders own holding in the minor suits will decide whether 3NT gets passed or not.
After 3NT by opener, the contract can still be played with the strong hand hidden in 4 of a major. You can choose to use Texas or SA Texas for opener to transfer into your 4-card major.

Similarly when opener has bid 3♥/3♠ as the singleton. If responder has 4-cards in the other major you can transfer into it (again either Texas or SA Texas).

The big downside with this approach is this: With a bust hand, bidding 4-card suits up the line, it can and will happen that the strong hand is exposed on the table.

Now let us apply this new fangled idea to the auction in the opening post.
West = 2NT (announcing the 4441 hand pattern, 17-24 HCP
East = 3♣ (terrible hand, 0-5 HCP)
West = 3♥ (the ♦ suit has been bypassed announcing it as the singleton)
East = 3♠ (to play, our best known fit)
All pass

A 3♠ contract has every chance of making.

In an auction such as this one, E/W can still play in 4♠ where either East or West holds more HCP. Give East say 5 HCP he can still transfer into the ♠ suit on level 4 for West to play the hand. My suggestion is to use SA Texas to remove any doubt from West as to what is going on. With more HCP East will bid 4♦ (West’s singleton) for West to transfer into the ♠ suit. Where West has a really big 4441 hand, the 3♠ bid from East will be lifted to 4♠.

There you have it. Nice and easy.

[Zelandakh]

@32519, I suggest you read Chris Ryall's method of using a 2C opening which has strong 3-suiters bundled within it. My own method is essentially a version of this but with some advantages from being able to start from a strong club auction.

After your suggested 2NT opening it is far better to play a 3C response as a relay with better hands and to use other responses as weak pass/correct. In my opinion these hand types are not frequent enough to devote the 2NT opening bid to. I would prefer to switch your 20-22 balanced with the strong 3-suiters (so 2D Multi is a weak 2 in a major or strong 3-suiter) or better yet just use Ryall's scheme where a 2C opening follwed by a 2NT rebid is the strong 3-suiter. Either way gets your 2NT opening back to a reasonable frequency.

[mike777]

 32519, on 2012-January-03, 14:21, said:

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This deal came up about an hour ago. West chose to open 2NT which was raised to 3NT by East. One can argue the merits of East's bid, however after the obvious ♦ lead from North the contract was doomed (2NT was also doomed after a ♦ lead).

Was West unlucky that East never held more ♦? Or is there a better way to bid these dreaded 4441 hands? Multi with the strong options (including the 4441 17-24 HCP) would not have helped here either. The bidding would have to be taken to level 4 to show the 4441 hand pattern. A 4-level contract will fail as well.

Any thoughts?

1c and at nv I would end up in 4s


I guess I would be one of the few to respond 1s at nv.

4s had some chances and even makes on this layout with a h lead. In any case I have bid worse games.

[mycroft]

Well, a good (very) oldfashioned Non-Natural treatment would have been:

2♦-2♠; (full roman "18-24, any 4441" - to play if you have spades)
P (yes, I do)

I would have the same 1♣-1♦; 1♥-1♠; 1NT-p auction in Precision as Fluffy.

But yeah, we are pulling your leg a bit. Some hands are bad for any system. However, I raise 2NT to game on "an expected entry", and that hand doesn't have one (even though the SQ *is* an entry), so I save one undertrick in a Natural system.

Re: mucking with Multi - why not just put the 4441s into 2♦ and take the 20-22 balanced hand out of the Multi, and replace 2NT minors opening with that?

[manudude03]

For what it's worth, the only reason we dropped the 4441 option out of multi (we played it as 18-26)in my main partnership is that auctions like 2D-3H-4D (4144) made for some very uncomfortable auctions, so in order to keep as much pre-empt power as possible, we scrapped the 4441s.