[Fluffy]

♠KJ10x
♥A10xx
♦-
♣KQJxx


1♦-pass-??


The normal bid with 5m-4M GF hands is to start with 2m then reverse, however on this case you risk it going 1♦-2♣-2NT having to guess wich major partner has if any.

[mike777]

[quote name='Fluffy' timestamp='1325242952' post='599513']
♠KJ10x
♥A10xx
♦-
♣KQJxx


1♦-pass-??


The normal bid with 5m-4M GF hands is to start with 2m then reverse, however on this case you risk it going 1♦-2♣-2NT having to guess wich major partner has if any.
[/quote


1) I start 2c gf.

2) 3h over 2nt

seems pretty standard for me so far.

pard will have 11-13 bal hand. not 5d and 4Major.

[han]

I think it depends on how you play the auction 1D - 2C. If partner can rebid 2Nt with 3-3-5-2 as well as 4-3-4-2 or 3-4-4-2 then you may have a problem. You could start with 1H then.

After 1D - 2C I play that 2D shows 4 hearts (could be balanced or unbalanced, 2H asks) and 2H shows 4 spades, so I would be more comfortable starting with 2C.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Again, I'll show Hardy style ( often poo-pooed by the posters here ):
The first obligation for opener is to rebid 2♦ if he has 5+ cards and does not deny a 4 card Major.
2NT immediately would deny a 4 card Major as well as deny 5+ Diam.
2M instead by opener would show that 4 card Major and deny 5+ cards Diam.

After 2♦, you still have the entire 2-level to find a 4-4 Major fit:
1♦ - 2♣ ( GF )
2♦ - 2♥( does not deny 4 cards Sp )
2NT ( no 4 card Major ) -
........again, the situation is clear .

[han]

I think it is Hardy who is poo-pooed, not this particular style of rebidding which was also advocated by Lawrence.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

han, on 2011-December-30, 05:53, said:

I think it is Hardy who is poo-pooed, not this particular style of rebidding which was also advocated by Lawrence.

Wrong again.
And Mike Lawrence devoted almost a 3rd of his TWO OVER ONE book to the 1♦ - 2♣! auction ( Methods 1 and 2 ).

[han]

What part of my post was incorrect?

[JLOGIC]

I would bid 2C anyways and risk it. We have a great hand for a club slam, good enough for me to want to start with 2C. We will probably make 3N even if we miss a 4-4 major suit somewhere anyways.

[whereagles]

2C and reverse. The odds are pard has a diamond 1-suiter, in which case we have an easy low level rebid available. But even if he has a balanced 12-14 we're pretty much ok. The only "bad" thing that can happen is

1D 2C
2N 3H
3S ??

and now you have no clear way to show a slammish spades hand: all of 4C, 4D and 4H might be misunderstood, so you pretty much have to bid a straight 6S. It's probably odds-on though.

[daveharty]

han, on 2011-December-30, 05:53, said:

I think it is Hardy who is poo-pooed

[TWO4BRIDGE]

han, on 2011-December-30, 05:53, said:

I think it is Hardy who is poo-pooed, not this particular style of rebidding which was also advocated by Lawrence.

OK, I misread your comment.
You are saying that his style for the 1♦ - 2♣! auction is probably OK with folks here ( since it is one of the methods also advocated by Lawrence too ), but that Max Hardy's style in general for 2/1 is often criticized by folks here.... being outdated... or some such.

[mike777]

have no idea what hardy or lawrence say but it seems we have bid our hand just fine if pard is:

4=3=4=2 and say around 11-13 and we bid:

1d=2c
2nt=3h
3s=4s



I have shown 4405 or 4414 and 14+ hcp for me. no problem at all.

otoh if pard bids 3nt over 3h an easy pass for us.
--

if pard is say:

xx..kQx...AQxxx...xxx he may have an issue but we live with it.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

mike777, on 2011-December-30, 09:52, said:

have no idea what hardy or lawrence say but it seems we have bid our hand just fine if pard is:

4=3=4=2 and say around 11-13 and we bid:

1d=2c
2nt=3h
3s=4s



I have shown 4405 or 4414 and 14+ hcp for me. no problem at all.

otoh if pard bids 3nt over 3h an easy pass for us.
--

if pard is say:

xx..kQx...AQxxx...xxx he may have an issue but we live with it.

If Opener is 4 3 4 2 ( your 1st example ):
1D - 2C!
2S ( 4 cards, and denies 5 cards Diam ) - 4S

If Opener is 2 3 5 3 ( your 2nd example ):
1D - 2C!
2D ( 5+ cards Diam; does not deny 4 card Major ) - 2H
2NT ( no 4 card Major ) - 3NT ( no "issue" )

[mike777]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-December-30, 10:13, said:

If Opener is 4 3 4 2 ( your 1st example ):
1D - 2C!
2S ( 4 cards, and denies 5 cards Diam ) - 4S

If Opener is 2 3 5 3 ( your 2nd example ):
1D - 2C!
2D ( 5+ cards Diam; does not deny 4 card Major ) - 2H
2NT ( no 4 card Major ) - 3NT ( no "issue" )

so on one I show an unbalanced hand and you do not

on two you have the same problem I have and you did not promise 6d and I did.

so it seems I show more than you.

[blackshoe]

Frankly, the main problem I have with Hardy is that he was a lousy writer. I think some of his proposed agreements were less than optimal (I would prefer two way Checkback over New Minor Forcing, for example) but that's a minor problem.

[mikeh]

I'd bid 2♣ for a number of reasons, most of them positive, in terms of the merits of 2♣, and one of them negative, in terms of the problems with 1♥.

2♣ is best, imo, for reaching a club slam. We might survive and still reach clubs after 1M, since opener may bid clubs for us, or we may later get some form of preference to clubs, but the problem with the latter is that partner will and should play us for at least 5♥s if we later show a good hand and 5♣s, so he'll rarely get us to clubs when he has 3 hearts. Meanwhile, 2♣ puts the suit into focus immediately.

He may surprise us with 2M over 2♣. Now we have an easy raise, setting trump at the 3-level, with partner knowing we have 4=5 so far.

He may rebid 2♦, over which we have an easy 2♥ and, once again, a major suit fit, if it exists, is found at the 3-level.

If we bid 1♥, partner will misconstrue our hand. While we may be able to establish captaincy, there are real risks here. Note the issue with how partner bids with 3=3 in the rounded suits....how are we ever going to convince him to stop preferring hearts on, say, Kxx, and prefer clubs on 10xx?

Meanwhile, the fear that he will bid 2N and we will end up unable to have a low-level major fit agreement is legitimate but low percentage. For one thing, he shouldn't, imo, bid 2N with 5422....he will be some 4432 11-14 if he has a 4 card major, and we aren't exactly cold for slam opposite most of those hands. While the cost is real, so too is the cost of distorting one's shape early in a constructive auction with, at least at the outset, real slam interest but not enough that responder can take control from the outset. In addition, it isn't exactly clear how we reach good slams and avoid poor ones if he raises our 1♥ or rebids 1N (assuming we bypass ♠s with 4=3=4=2/4=2=4=3 hands) or rebids 1♠ (assuming he doesn't bypass...if 1♠ shows shape, I really like our slam chances).

[Mbodell]

whereagles, on 2011-December-30, 07:42, said:

2C and reverse. The odds are pard has a diamond 1-suiter, in which case we have an easy low level rebid available. But even if he has a balanced 12-14 we're pretty much ok. The only "bad" thing that can happen is

1D 2C
2N 3H
3S ??

and now you have no clear way to show a slammish spades hand: all of 4C, 4D and 4H might be misunderstood, so you pretty much have to bid a straight 6S. It's probably odds-on though.

If you judge it worth a slam try but are worried about ambiguity surely you could bid 5♠ there to invite the slam. You might judge it worth the slam force, but you have choices besides 4 and 6.

[whereagles]

Unless I have agreed with pard what 5S would be, I wouldn't bid that. Bridge is not about giving pard an headache.