[straube]

I think we could relay partner's limited 1D opener with 1N. I know other folks do this. How does responding with a 3-cd major work out? What are the 2-level responses? Etc. Does it work best for a non-1N response to deny GF values or should distributional GF hands start to show suits right away?

Our 1D can be...

1. bal 11-13
2. 3-suited, no 5-cd major
3. C/D
4. 4M/5C
5. 4M/5+D

1D-1N
.....2C-C/D or 3-suited short major
..........2H-3-suited, short major
...............2N-higher short
....................3D-1444
....................3H-0445
....................3S-0454
..........2S-C/D, reverser
.....2D-4H/5m OR 3-suited short minor
..........2S-3-suited, short minor
..........2N-5C
...............3D-1435
...............3H-2425
...............3S-3415
..........3C-D, higher short
..........3D-2452
..........3H-3451
..........3S-2461
..........3N-3460
..........4C-2470
..........4D-1471
.....2H-4S/5m
.....2S+ balanced schemes

A little trouble finding room for the 5m332s.

[Flameous]

I have been using 1♥ as nat or GF relay and have yet to see any problems with that. We bid it with about 15+ bal, GF clubs and other hands that aren't likely to give problems if opps interfere. (All heart hands obviously) Mainly you should avoid relay with a heart shortness cause it's likely partner will raise you.
It gives you two extra steps (not exactly cause you can't always use 1st step as relay later) and your NT bid.
I'd prefer keeping some way to show distributional GF hands.

[akhare]

straube, on 2011-December-23, 23:08, said:

.....2S+ balanced schemes

A little trouble finding room for the 5m332s.

Unless I am missing something, here's a TOSR-like scheme off the top of my head

2S: 5C332 / 4432, 44 same shape:
.....3C: 44, same color
.....3D: 5C332
.....3H: 5C332
.....3S: 5C332
.....3N: 4C333

2N: 44, same rank
.....3D: Short D
.....3H: Short H
.....3S: Short S
3C: 44, Same shape
.....3H: Short H
.....3S: Short S
.....3N: Short C
3D: 5D332
3H: 5D332
3S: 5D332
3N: 4D333

[straube]

Flameous, on 2011-December-24, 05:54, said:

I have been using 1♥ as nat or GF relay and have yet to see any problems with that. We bid it with about 15+ bal, GF clubs and other hands that aren't likely to give problems if opps interfere. (All heart hands obviously) Mainly you should avoid relay with a heart shortness cause it's likely partner will raise you.
It gives you two extra steps (not exactly cause you can't always use 1st step as relay later) and your NT bid.
I'd prefer keeping some way to show distributional GF hands.

I think 1H as natural/GF clashes with 1D as possibly balanced. I've seen 1D-1H, 1N before as showing 4 hearts. This leaves 2C as relay, 2D as invite in hearts and 2H as sign off. Like you say, if partner raises a 1H response (and responder has a GF hand without hearts) there is insufficient room to relay opener's hand.

[straube]

akhare, on 2011-December-24, 09:21, said:

Unless I am missing something, here's a TOSR-like scheme off the top of my head

2S: 5C332 / 4432, 44 same shape:
.....3C: 44, same color
.....3D: 5C332
.....3H: 5C332
.....3S: 5C332
.....3N: 4C333

2N: 44, same rank
.....3D: Short D
.....3H: Short H
.....3S: Short S
3C: 44, Same shape
.....3H: Short H
.....3S: Short S
.....3N: Short C
3D: 5D332
3H: 5D332
3S: 5D332
3N: 4D333

Where do the 4M333s go?

There is room for 3 more balanced shapes by including them with 1D-1N, 2C. This could be...

minors, 3-suited short major, or (for example) 5C(332)

[straube]

So wondering how the rest of the structure would be affected...

1D-?

1M-natural, 3 hearts possible, rarely 3 spades?
1N-GF relay
2C-5+ 0-11
2D-natural, f
2H-5S/4H, 0-10
2S-5/4 minors
2N-GI
3C-GI?
other-weak?

I think I don't like this

[awm]

1♦ - 1♥ (hearts or GF):

... 1♠ = 4♠; denies four hearts
... 1N = weak notrump without a four-card major, or 3145/2245 (i.e. longer clubs than diamonds and not a heart fit)
... 2♣ = both minors; 5+♦ and 4+♣ (2♠ GF relay and losing a step to symmetric, or use 2♥ relay if you can play 1♦-2♥ direct as weak)
... 2♦ = 4♥ and 5+♦ (2♠ is GF relay and symmetric style; 2♥ is to play, others natural implying hearts)
... 2♥ = either 4♥/5♣ min no void, or 4♥ in a true balanced hand
... 2♠ = 4♥ in a three-suiter; 5♣-4♥-31 shapes can bid this way or via 2♥ depending on strength
... 2N = 1345 in that order (lack of opposing spade bid makes this pretty rare unless responder has a relay hand anyway; 3♠ is relay for strength)

1♦ - 1♥ - 2♥ - 2♠ relay:

... 2N = 4+♣
... 3♣ = 4♦, so 2443 or 3442 (relay asks doubleton with zoom)
... 3♦ = 3-4♥-33
... 3♥ = 4423 (spades, high doubleton)
... 3♠+ = 4432 (spades, low doubleton, zoom)

1♦ - 1♥ - 2♥ - 2♠ - 2N - 3♣ relay:

... 3♦ = x4x5 (3♥ asks stiff and high/none/low with zoom)
... 3♥+ show 2434/3424

1♦ - 1♥ - 1♠:

... 2♣ = invitational hand (like XYZ)
... 2♦ = GF relay
... others = natural, imply hearts

1♦ - 1♥ - 1♠ - 2♦ relay:

... 2♥ = balanced or 4♠/5♣/no void (like 1♦-1♥-2♥ except with spades)
... 2♠ = three suited with short hearts
... 2N+ = 4♠ and 5+♦ symmetric style

1♦ - 1♥ - 1NT - 2♦ relay (XYZ style):

2♥ = two hearts, no other doubleton though
2♠ = "unbalanced" hand 2245 or 3145 (2NT relays in that order)
2N = 33(34)
3♣ = 2335 or 3325 (3♦ asks)
3♦ = 2344
3♥, 3♠+ = 2353 or 3352 (with zoom)

[straube]

Very clever. Thanks for working it out. We have a way to relay after 1D-1H, 1S worked out. Would have to make some decisions about 1D-1H, 1N because presently we try to describe responder's shapely hand with hearts instead of asking opener's pattern. Maybe have 1H be hearts or a GF balanced hand.

[1eyedjack]

awm, on 2011-December-24, 13:24, said:

1♦ - 1♥ (hearts or GF):

... 1♠ = 4♠; denies four hearts
... 1N = weak notrump without a four-card major, or 3145/2245 (i.e. longer clubs than diamonds and not a heart fit)
... 2♣ = both minors; 5+♦ and 4+♣ (2♠ GF relay and losing a step to symmetric, or use 2♥ relay if you can play 1♦-2♥ direct as weak)
... 2♦ = 4♥ and 5+♦ (2♠ is GF relay and symmetric style; 2♥ is to play, others natural implying hearts)
... 2♥ = either 4♥/5♣ min no void, or 4♥ in a true balanced hand
... 2♠ = 4♥ in a three-suiter; 5♣-4♥-31 shapes can bid this way or via 2♥ depending on strength
... 2N = 1345 in that order (lack of opposing spade bid makes this pretty rare unless responder has a relay hand anyway; 3♠ is relay for strength)

Am not convinced of the rarety of the 2N rebid, despite that I appreciate the logic. I can't say that I am that happy with it. Responder could have a weak misfit, say with 4-4 in the majors, and you are now too high and higher than the rest of the room (who probably play in 2H). Or responder could have a game invite and opener's failure to limit his hand presents him with an impossible decision whether to pass or raise.

And what is opener's rebid over 1H when holding a diamond single-suiter? I suppose you could make the 1S rebid a 2-way bid: 4xSpades or 6xDiamonds. Responder then rebids 1N with a weak hand without 4 Spades, non-forcing but expecting opener to pull to 2D with 6.

[awm]

1eyedjack, on 2011-December-24, 20:44, said:

Am not convinced of the rarety of the 2N rebid, despite that I appreciate the logic. I can't say that I am that happy with it. Responder could have a weak misfit, say with 4-4 in the majors, and you are now too high and higher than the rest of the room (who probably play in 2H). Or responder could have a game invite and opener's failure to limit his hand presents him with an impossible decision whether to pass or raise.

And what is opener's rebid over 1H when holding a diamond single-suiter? I suppose you could make the 1S rebid a 2-way bid: 4xSpades or 6xDiamonds. Responder then rebids 1N with a weak hand without 4 Spades, non-forcing but expecting opener to pull to 2D with 6.

His 1♦ opening doesn't include 6+♦ without a major (I assume he opens 2♦ on that).

There are other ways around the 1345 shape (such as adding it into 2♥) that might be better, but complicate the relay structure slightly.

[straube]

We do open 2D with single-suited diamonds (also 6D/4C). Heretofore, we have used 1D-1H, 2D as a "good" raise. I'm not that worried about 2N getting us overboard; opponents have an 8-cd fit so we'd most likely have to compete to the 3-level.

So 1D-1H, 3C is probably a good 5/5 minors? I was thinking though of

1D-1H, 2N as bad 1-3-4-5 and 1D-1H, 3C as good 1-3-4-5. After all, there's no way to invite opposite 1-3-4-5 as 3C, 3D, and 3H are all possible places to play.

[1eyedjack]

OK I missed that opener could not have a Diamond single-suiter.

You might experiment with the 1S rebid being the no-trumpy sort of hand without a major (but possibly with a major singleton), and use the 1N rebid to show 4 Spades instead.
Might be able to fit the 1-3-5-4 hands in the 1S rebid then.
Might wrong-side the contract and allow a cheap lead directing double, so there would be downsides.

[straube]

Looking for feedback. I tweaked a few things to more resemble how we presently do things (memory load) but the main change is for rebids of 1D-1H, 2S and higher. Merry Christmas.

1D-1H (natural or GF balanced)
.....1S-four spades or 3-1-4-5
..........2C-XYZ
..........2D-GF relay
.....1N-balanced including 2-2-4-5
.....2C-5+D/4+C
..........2S-GF relay +1
.....2D-4H/5+D
..........2S-GF relay +0
.....2H-4H/bal or 5 clubs
..........2S-GF relay
...............2N-5 clubs or 3433
....................3C-relays
.........................3D-1-4-3-5
.........................3H-2-4-2-5
.........................3S-3-4-1-5
.........................3N-3-4-3-3
...............3C-4 spades
...............3D-2434
...............3H-3424
...............3S-2443
...............3N-3442
.....2S-3-suited, short minor
..........P-weak 4S/4H
..........2N-GF relay
...............3C-higher shortness
....................3D-relays
.........................3H-4-4-1-4
.........................3S-4-4-0-5
...............3D-4-4-1-4
...............3H-4-4-0-5
..........3C-game try, liking club shortness best
...............3D-game try, diamond shortness
...............3H-minimum
..........3D-game try, liking diamond shortness best
.....2N-1-3-4-5
..........3C-to play
..........3D-size asking
..............3H-minimum
..........3H-sign off
..........3S-GF relay
.....3C-5D/6C max (I don't see a need to show a mere 5/5 and a rebid of 2C shows 5D/4C so responder should preference to diamonds same as for a 6D/5C hand)
.....3D-4 hearts, short spades (presume 1-4-4-4), max
..........3S-relays for QPs with presumed 1-4-4-4 shape
.....3H-4 hearts, short spades (presume 1-4-4-4), min

So I realize that subdividing the 3-suited hands is a little bit messy, plus I now have too much space for the patterns in 2S and thus not enough for resolving the short spade hands. In compensation, they can't double the 2S bid (because it shows spades) and partner can decide to sign off in 2S when he is 4/4 in the majors. One other compensation is that when responder is only interested in game, he can have some idea of the shortness and strength of opener. After all, we'd be sacrificing mini-splinters for the sake of relays...and game before slam. Agree? Disagree?

On a separate note, I'm thinking that...

1D-2S should not be 5S/4+H GI any more. Unlike Meckwell, we don't lose hearts after 1D-1S, 2D (showing 4H/5+D) and a 3H continuation can show 5S/4H GI. We only lose hearts after 1D-1S, 2C but we can continue 2N and then check back for hearts.

This leaves 1D-2S as 5/4 or 4/5 minors and 2N asks longer minor

This in turn leaves 1D-2N as natural GI (instead of minors).

[petterb]

straube, on 2011-December-25, 03:25, said:

1D-1H (natural or GF balanced)
2H = 4H/bal or 5 clubs

I see a big problem with this. The playing strength of the 11-13 balanced hand is about one trick weaker than a minimum club hand, and I assume opener can also have a maximum club hand.

How is responder with a non-GF heart hand going to know when he should stop in 2H or make an invite?

[straube]

Good point. How about...

1D-1H, 2D shows a 5m
.....2S GF relay
..........2N-5 only clubs
.........etc. resolving 5 or more diamonds at plus one

1D-1H, 2H shows 4 balanced 11-13
.....2S GF relay
..........2N-four spades
..........etc

[straube]

Just putting it together. So far after 1D-1H...

1S-four spades or 3145
.....2D-GF relay
1N-bal or 2245
2C-5D/4C
.....2S-GF relay at 0
2D-4 hearts, five clubs or five ore more diamonds
.....2H-sign off attempt unless partner is max
.....2S-GF relay at 1
..........2N-five clubs
...............3D-1435
...............3H-2425
...............3S-3415, 6 QPs
..........3C-diamonds, higher
..........3D-2452
..........3H-3451
..........3S-2461
..........3N-3460
..........4C-2470
..........4D-24711, 6
2H-4 hearts, bal
.....2S-GF relay
..........2N-4 spades
..........3C-2434
..........3D-3424
..........3H-2443
..........3S-3442
..........3N-3433
2S-4 spades, short minor
.....P-4/4 majors
.....2N-GF relay
..........3C-diamond shortness
..........3D-4441
..........3H-4450, 6
.....3C-anti-splinter
..........3D-max, diamond splinter
..........3H-minimum
.....3D-anti-splinter
2N-1345
.....3C-to play
.....3D-size ask
.....3H-to play
3C-5D/6C, max
3D-max, 1444 or 0445 or 0454
.....3S-QP ask
3H-min, 1444 or 0445 or 0454
.....3S-QP ask


Any comments, Adam? anyone? What do we think of 3C showing max and six clubs?

I'm feeling like the main downside to this structure is the lack of clarity with the 3-suited short spade hands. Not a big deal. The way things are written now, the maximum hands with a minor suit get to bid again after part tries to sign off in 2 hearts...hopefully without a break in tempo.

The anti-splinters have a little ambiguity.

I'm feeling like this ought to survive competition fairly nicely as long as responder has either hearts or a GF balanced hand. It might be a little unproductive after 1D P 1H (1S) and opener makes a support double which leads nowhere. Misdirected effort. Still, in competition opener can compete to as many as 3 hearts and responder can use 3S as a cue negating the heart message and asking for a stopper.

[straube]

1D-1H, 2S-

.....2N-ask
..........3C-higher short
...............3D-size ask
..........3D-club short, min
..........3H-club short, max
.....3C-GF relay

[awm]

I think 5/5 minors is missing; if you include it in 1♦-1♥-2♣ then you lose a step on the relay.

Honestly I think the 2NT call is a weakness of this structure; perhaps you can put 1345 into 2♥ with the extra space you gained by removing x4x5.

[straube]

1D-1H, 2C-2S...

.....2N-5D/4C
..........3D-1354 at 0
..........3H-2254 at 2
..........3S-3154 at 2
.....etc resolves 5/5 at 0

not in love with 1345 in 2N but it makes our 2H structure identical to what happens after 1D-1H, 1S-2D, 2S-2N where 2S promises a balanced hand.

[straube]

Well, I looked at a few hands and the 1345 appears not to be a problem. In most cases, the opponents are bidding spades in advance of that bid. When they don't, it appears pretty obvious most of the time what responder wants to do opposite that pattern. The only non-fitter is 4432. I also found that responder does want to be able to play 3D and it seems that playing 3D is more important than a size asking bid.
I'm thinking 1D-1H, 3C should show that pattern and 1D-1H, 2N should be the 5D/6C hand. This leads to better right-siding for NT and club contracts and gives opener one more chance to bid with the giant 5/6 hand (which could be 6/6 etc).

So 1D-1H, 3C

.....P-to play
.....3D-to play
.....3H-to play
.....3S-QP ask
.....3N-to play
.....4m-invitational