[Zelandakh]

1D
==
... - 1H = INV+ relay
... - 1S = weak, 4+ spades
... - 1N = weak, 4+ hearts, <4 spades
... - 2C = weak, 5+ clubs, no 4 card major
... - 2D = weak, 3+ diamonds

1D - 1H
=======
1S = unbal min (then 1NT GF relay, others = nat invites)
1N = 11-13 bal
2C = max, both minors
... - 2D = relay
... - ... - 2H = 4 diamonds
... - ... - 2S = 5-5 or more
... - ... - 2N = 5 diamonds, 4 clubs
... - ... - 3C = 6 diamonds, 4 clubs, 0-1 spades
... - ... - 3D = 2164
... - ... - 3H = 3064
... - ... - 3S = 1174
2D = max, 4 hearts, 4+ diamonds
... - 2H = relay
... - ... - 2S = 6+ diamonds
... - ... - 2N = 5 diamonds, no void
... - ... - 3C = 1444
... - ... - 3D = 0445
... - ... - 3H = 0454
2H = max, 4 spades, 5+ diamonds
... - 2S = relay
... - ... - 2N = 5 diamonds
... - ... - 3C = 6 diamonds, 0-1 hearts
... - ... - 3D = 4261
... - ... - 3H = 4360
... - ... - 3S = 4171
2S = max, 4 spades, 4+ clubs
... - 2N = relay
... - ... - 3C = 3-suited
... - ... - ... - 3D = relay
... - ... - ... - ... - 3H = 4144
... - ... - ... - ... - 3S = 4045
... - ... - ... - ... - 3N = 4054
... - ... - 3D = 4135
... - ... - 3H = 4225
... - ... - 3S = 4315
2N = max, 4 hearts, 5 clubs, no void
... - 3C = relay
... - ... - 3D = 1435
... - ... - 3H = 2425
... - ... - 3S = 3415
3C = max, 4414
3D = max, 4441
3H = max, 4405
3S = max, 4450

Of course you may run into ACBL regs trouble with this. You could describe the 1H response as a range/shape ask since the most common responses are 1S = unbalanced min and 1NT = natural. I have no idea if this is enough to get past TDs over there since I have yet to understand exactly what they mean by "relay responses". It certainly does not match with any other definition I have come across.

[awm]

Zelandakh, on 2011-December-31, 08:48, said:

1D
==
... - 1H = INV+ relay
... - 1S = weak, 4+ spades
... - 1N = weak, 4+ hearts, <4 spades
... - 2C = weak, 5+ clubs, no 4 card major
... - 2D = weak, 3+ diamonds

1D - 1H
=======
1S = unbal min (then 1NT GF relay, others = nat invites)
1N = 11-13 bal
.......

I've never really understood this type of method. Finding a good fit is really important in this game. Aside from landing in much better partials, you can quite often make a game on less than "full values" when you have a nice major suit fit. Here neither the response (1♥ INV+ any) nor opener's rebid (1♠ unbalanced min) really says anything about shape. Suppose you have this sequence and responder holds a 2434 invite, what is his next call? He could easily make game opposite a shapely min with four hearts, but there's no particular guarantee of game opposite a 4144 minimum (for example). And this was on invitational hands; the weak ones are even worse. How do you find your heart fit with 1453 opposite a weak 4423 after 1♦-1♠? How do you find any reasonable spot with 4414 opposite 2344 after starting presumably 1♦-2♦? It just seems much better to have a method where opener shows shape.

I wouldn't be worried about the ACBL mid-chart regulations though. Again, any sequence of relays is game forcing. And ACBL doesn't exactly mean the same thing we do by relay anyway. Josh Sher got a similar relay structure (min step = any inv+, relays only continue if we are GF'd) ruled legal on the mid-chart a while back, and while some things have changed since then I doubt this has.

[straube]

I think what you've effectively done is traded constructive (6+) fit-finding for being +0 on relay auctions (we are +2 now). I think it's a bad trade. Find the fits, then invite or relay as strength permits.

[akhare]

Zelandakh, on 2011-December-31, 08:48, said:

1D
==
... - 1H = INV+ relay
... - 1S = weak, 4+ spades
... - 1N = weak, 4+ hearts, <4 spades
... - 2C = weak, 5+ clubs, no 4 card major
... - 2D = weak, 3+ diamonds

How does this scheme locate a 4-4 heart fit after 1D - 1S?

[straube]

So partner and I decided to collapse the 5m4H22s into the balanced hands.

How about then.....

1D-1H

1S-four spades or 3145
.....2D-GF relay
.....2H-5D
.....2S-bal
..........3C-4234
..........3D-4324
..........3H-4243
..........3S-4342
..........3N-4333
1N-bal
2C-5D/4C
.....2S-GF relay
..........2N-5/4 only
...............3D-1354
...............3H-2254
...............3S-3154
2D-4 hearts, singleton somewhee
.....2S-GF relay
..........2N-higher
...............3D-1435
...............3H-1444
...............3S-1453
..........3C-middle
..........3D-3451
..........3H-4441
2H-4 hearts, bal
.....2S-GF relay
..........2N-4 spades
...............3D-4423
...............3H-4432
..........3C-2434
..........3D-3424 or 2425
..........3H-2443
..........3S-3442 or 2452
2S-6+ diamonds
.....3C-higher shortness
.....3D-2461
......etc
2N-void
.....3D-general invite
.....3C-GF relay
..........3D-higher
...............3S-0445
...............3N-0454
..........3H-4405
..........3S-4450
3C-1345
3D-5D/6C, 13-15

No use for 3H. Seems a waste.

[Zelandakh]

awm, on 2011-December-31, 10:50, said:

I've never really understood this type of method. Finding a good fit is really important in this game. Aside from landing in much better partials, you can quite often make a game on less than "full values" when you have a nice major suit fit. Here neither the response (1♥ INV+ any) nor opener's rebid (1♠ unbalanced min) really says anything about shape. Suppose you have this sequence and responder holds a 2434 invite, what is his next call? He could easily make game opposite a shapely min with four hearts, but there's no particular guarantee of game opposite a 4144 minimum (for example). And this was on invitational hands; the weak ones are even worse. How do you find your heart fit with 1453 opposite a weak 4423 after 1♦-1♠? How do you find any reasonable spot with 4414 opposite 2344 after starting presumably 1♦-2♦? It just seems much better to have a method where opener shows shape.

Let me see if I can help. I agree wholeheartedly in the importance of fit-finding. This is essentially the point of bidding suits up-the-line with weak hands - it maximises the chance of finding a fit. For example, Opener has 1453 and Responder has a weak 4423. The bidding starts 1D - 1S; 1NT where 1NT shows hearts. Responder will now bid 2H with most hands, or with a super-max can jump to 3H. No game will be missed and the fit is found. This is also the answer to akhare's question - 1NT in weak auctions (from either player) shows hearts.

The 4414 (Opener) opposite 2344 (Responder) is a different matter. In my system diamonds are always real so it does not come up. Here where 1D can be short you have to respond 2C (non-forcing) on this. However, I agree that that creates something of a problem with 4441 (Opener) opposite a weak 3325 (Responder). This is one of the reasons I use this method in conjunction with an unbalanced diamond and traditional Precision 2C shapes. It still works when Opener is "diamonds or clubs but not both" but it is a little more awkward.

For invitational hands you are bidding shape too. Your example of a 2434 invitational Responder opposite a minimum Opener runs 1D - 1H; 1S - 2C. You can afford to search for the heart fit at the 2 level because both hands are limited and so this does not show extras. Simple natural bidding! If there is no fit you just finish in the "bucket" of 2NT. If there is a fit then either player can upgrade their hand to bid game.