[32519]

Vampyr, on 2012-May-18, 18:40, said:

I think that if you need this you will wait forever to have a Snapdragon double, and might as well not play it.

Besides, I think that having suit-quality requirements mitigates the usefulness of this convention. Most of the time you will end up in two of partner's (usually) major, but if partner has 3+ cards in your suit you may play there. Also you may pass information on the degree of double fit, useful for later rounds of bidding.

If I were to play Snapdragon at the 3-level, I suppose I would require a good 6-card suit. Don't think I would do it though, and the 4-level is out of the question.

I'm still trying to decide whether it is worthwhile including Snapdragon as part of your bidding arsenal. I agree with you that the occasions for its meaningful use will probably seldom occur. But when it does, it can surely prove useful.

What if something like this was dealt?

---

With such a nice ♠ suit, my guess is that Snapdragon won't even cross the mind of most. Instead the player sitting fourth will automatically bid the ♠ suit. Game may not be reached now when West's 2♥ bid is overcalled with 2♠ by North. A distributional game double fit may be lost

[Vampyr]

32519, on 2012-May-19, 14:43, said:

With such a nice ♠ suit, my guess is that Snapdragon won't even cross the mind of most.

LOL no, it would not cross the mind of anyone to make a double that shows 5-2 in two suits when holding 6-3.

Quote

Instead the player sitting fourth will automatically bid the ♠ suit. Game may not be reached now when West's 2♥ bid is overcalled with 2♠ by North. A distributional game double fit may be lost

A fit jump might do the trick.

Anyway, I think you have heard the thoughts of everyone who has something to say about Snapdragon doubles. If you choose to play them, just agree with partner on your parameters and see how it goes.

[mycroft]

Or, after the 2♠ rebid by overcaller, advancer shows diamond support and responder, who can tell "distributional game" as well as advancer, will bid 4♠. Because we're playing Snapdragon, that has to be a game try based on a real double fit, as with the semi-fit, he would have doubled.

[Lurpoa]

aguahombre, on 2011-December-29, 08:50, said:

Ah, yes. Today, they might call it the "less informatory double".

♥ ♥ ♥


Nebulous Double ??


♥♥♥

[32519]

Vampyr, on 2012-May-19, 14:58, said:

LOL no, it would not cross the mind of anyone to make a double that shows 5-2 in two suits when holding 6-3.

The hand posted above was exploring further the question asked in post 16 (repeated here for convenience):

32519, on 2012-May-16, 16:06, said:

Regarding the Snapdragon Double, what is the expert consensus on the following?
1. The minimum number of HCP promised by the fourth hand? (6-7-8-?)
2. The minimum number of cards promised in the fourth suit? I have heard some absolutely insisting on a minimum of 6-cards in the fourth suit. Others have been heard to say a 5-card suit is sufficient if it is a reasonable suit e.g. AQJxx. Do you agree or disagree with this?

Including 6-cards in the fourth suit was therefore done intentionally. A 5-card misfit in the fourth suit is discussed at the end of this post.

The hand posted above was also exploring further the suggestion made by chasetb in post 17 to allow 3 cards in partners suit (repeated here for convenience):

chasetb, on 2012-May-17, 12:16, said:

While I don't play Snapdragon, I would go with honor-doubleton in partner's suit, and generally a decent 5-card suit. However, unlike some other people, I would also do it with 3 baby cards in partner's suit if balanced, and/or a weakish 6-card suit. I would say you should have a minimum of 7 HCP, but where the honors are and the spot cards are more important than outright HCP.

Therefore, including 3-cards in partner’s suit was also done intentionally.

Vampyr, on 2012-May-19, 14:58, said:

A fit jump might do the trick.

After reading more about fit jumps over here and over here I’m not convinced that they are applicable when all four players are bidding. You can quite easily end up in a disaster like this:

---

When the bidding goes: 1♣-1♦-1♥-2♠ (fit jump), you are forced to 3♦. With the HCP favouring the opponents they now trot out the red card and you end up red-faced! The Snapdragon Double keeps the bidding lower. It also keeps you out of trouble.

The first article stipulates the criteria for Fit Showing Jumps as the following:
1. A good 5+ card suit, typically with 2-3 working honours
2. 4+ cards in partner’s suit, preferably 5 when partner bids a minor suit
3. 10-11 HCP, perhaps shaded with primary honour controls
4. An unbalanced distribution, preferably with a singleton or void (no flatter than a 5-4-2-2 shape)

The first hand posted is out of kilter with Fit Showing Jumps, both regarding HCP and the number of cards promised in partner’s suit. It is also out of kilter regarding a (normal) FSJ sequence.

[Zelandakh]

32519, on 2012-May-24, 00:16, said:

With the HCP favouring the opponents they now trot out the red card and you end up red-faced!

3♦X is 2 off on best defence. How many hearts can E-W make? How many West players do you think will pass over 2♠ with 4 card support for partner's major and a void in the opps' known fit? Whether the South hand qualifies for a FSJ is certainly questionable (I would bid 1♠) but using this as an example of "trouble" is pretty silly.

[32519]

Zelandakh, on 2012-May-24, 02:06, said:

3♦X is 2 off on best defence. How many hearts can E-W make? How many West players do you think will pass over 2♠ with 4 card support for partner's major and a void in the opps' known fit? Whether the South hand qualifies for a FSJ is certainly questionable (I would bid 1♠) but using this as an example of "trouble" is pretty silly.

You’re focusing too much on the hand itself and not enough on the principle that I was trying to illustrate; the principle being that I don’t believe that fit jumps are appropriate when all four hands are bidding. By all means, shuffle the cards around in any combination which you choose. Just don’t lose sight of the principle.

This thread has already attracted a fair amount of views which tells me that others are interested in what is being discussed. A lot of players know about the Snapdragon Double. How may of these players actually use it? I have absolutely no idea. I am willing to put my head on the chopping block here and say that not enough partnerships using Snapdragon have detailed agreements on its wider possible applications.

More to follow here as I have another idea on how Snapdragon can be made more useful.

Watch this space!

[Zelandakh]

32519, on 2012-May-24, 04:36, said:

You’re focusing too much on the hand itself and not enough on the principle that I was trying to illustrate; the principle being that I don’t believe that fit jumps are appropriate when all four hands are bidding.

Could you provide what you see as a more productive use for a 2♠ or 3♠ bid on this auction? Even on an unsuitable hand tailor-made to be as bad as possible a fit jump was actually not at all bad. Now switch a heart to the ♦Q in the South hand, for example, and where do you want to be? What about if North has a more suitable hand, perhaps switch the black suits around. Can you really not see that the FJ gives you an immediate advantage here of finding your double fit (or lack thereof) before the opponents can? Making the opponents guess before they can obtain complete information is winning bridge.

[Vampyr]

32519, on 2012-May-24, 04:36, said:

I am willing to put my head on the chopping block here and say that not enough partnerships using Snapdragon have detailed agreements on its wider possible applications.

What do you consider "enough"? When I make a Snapdragon Double my partner usually makes the next bid and our side plays the hand. Those are my agreements and given the frequency of the convention, I am happy with them.