[mikeh]

Cascade, on 2011-December-07, 12:48, said:

The other advantage cited is that with a weak hand with both minors (5/5) we can transfer to diamonds and if partner doesn't super accept with 3♦ we can pass 3♣ to play. You may need to change what constitutes a superaccept when you are 3=2 in the minors.

we use 3♣ as weak 5-5 minors. What do you use 3♣ for? I've seen it as puppet...the original puppet stayman convention was, if I recall correctly, exactly this: a 3♣ response to 1N, rather than a form of stayman over 2N.

[MickyB]

2S as clubs or invite sounds great in uncontested auctions but it must be fairly awful when the next hand overcalls. What do I do with a maximum but no club fit?

[mikeh]

MickyB, on 2011-December-08, 11:55, said:

2S as clubs or invite sounds great in uncontested auctions but it must be fairly awful when the next hand overcalls. What do I do with a maximum but no club fit?

double

More seriously, what do you do when the transfer shows clubs? Bid 4♣?

I've never seen anyone bid 4♣ here and very much doubt that it is a winning call.

[MickyB]

mikeh, on 2011-December-08, 14:42, said:

double

More seriously, what do you do when the transfer shows clubs? Bid 4♣?

I've never seen anyone bid 4♣ here and very much doubt that it is a winning call.

With the balanced invite, how do you follow up over a 3S overcall? Dbl is balanced, 3NT shows real clubs?

[phil_20686]

You should play that after a transfer to a minor the first new suit is shortage. When you have about a ten count with a decent suit the primary danger is that the oppositing are cashing a suit, and you want to play 5m when its right. My bidding a shortage you help parter decide between 3N and 5m. I really find it to be a very much superior treatment to cue bidding or values.

[akwoo]

Against skilled defenders, I think it's worth giving up the super-accept in diamonds and using 2N as invitational and 3C as transfer to diamonds.

[aguahombre]

mike777, on 2011-December-07, 20:08, said:

Of course everyone has their fav treatments, no claim one is better than other but it seems this style of 4 suit tfr gives up a bit.

We only find the very recent 2S response, which can include certain balanced NT raises to be of enough interest to consider switching to 4SX. Otherwise, we are like you...quite comfortable with our age-old NT toys. We give up things, too, by using the jumps to 3C and 3D for "enroute Puppet" and major 2-suited invites.

[Zelandakh]

I think the methods outlined by Mike (over 2S) and Wayne (over 2NT) are the best way to play 4 suit transfers. Let me suggest 3 competing methods though which are similar. The first, which I usually call 5-suit transfers, is to use 2S as a range ask, 2NT as clubs and 3C as diamonds. You need to bundle additional stuff into 2S of course, typically either Baron or minor suit Stayman although other possibilities exist. You also have to decide what to do with the hands that you were previously handling by a 3C response.

The second is 3 suit transfers. Here a 2NT response is a club transfer but the diamond transfer is made via Stayman. When I used this method a rebid of 3C over a 2M response to Stayman, or a rebid of 3D over a 2D response showed diamonds. Any hands that are now difficult to bid because their path is blocked can now be redirected via the 2S response, or if you can handle everything then 2S becomes the hands with both minors. 2S also handles the NT invites. You end up with slightly more space due to the 2D response absorbing the weak diamond hands.

A final alternative is very similar to the above but switches some of the hands between 2S and 2NT. A 2S response is as per 4 suit transfers, a natural NT invite or clubs, while the diamond hands are handled as per 3 suit transfers. That leaves the 2NT response to handle either awkward hands or for both minors. Overall this works out very similarly to 3 suit transfers, it is mostly just a matter of which hands you prefer to have initial ambiguity about.

I personally think that these last 2 methods (handling diamond hands via Stayman) are strictly better than standard 4 suit transfers. Of course you need a little more system to make it work and it makes the minors asymmetric which may not be to everyone's taste. FWiiW my system of choice is something similar to the last of these methods, albeit in a Puppet context. I have used all of them at some time or another though with normal Stayman (but always a weak NT).