[Antrax]

Matchpoints. NS vul. N deals and opens 1♣. Opponents silent from then on.
East:
♠97
♥KQ2
♦AKQ764
♣93

West:
♠AKJ6
♥A654
♦J3
♣JT5

Our auction:

Spoiler

(1♣)-1♦-(p)-2♣
(p)-3♦-(p)-4♦
(p)-4♥-(p)-4♠
(p)-5♦-(p)-p
(p)

Wondering if it's a good contract / bidding.

[Fluffy]

The contract looks great but the 2♣ bid is wrong, use cuebid only with support or with hands that really have no alternative bid.

Here 4th hand has a clear 1♥ response, wich if you don´t play right now as 4+ cards and forcing, you should switch as soon as possible.

[Cyberyeti]

5♦ is where you would want to be at IMPs, at MPs 4♥ might be better.

It's very close and may depend on the system played by your oppos. If hearts are 3-3, you want to be in 4♥, if hearts are 4-2 you need the hand with 4 to only have 3 clubs assuming opps kick off with at least one top club. If NS are playing weak no trump, 4 card majors there's every chance it's excellent, less so if a 2 card club, strong no trump and 5 card majors.

(1♣)-1♦(1♦ over 1♣ will be an opening hand for us)-1♥(2♣ would be a raise)
2♥-2♠
3♦-4♣(can't bid 3N, only 4♥ pick a game)
?

I'd probably bid 5♦ now as I can see the issue of the diamonds possibly being dead if hearts aren't 3-3.

[phil_20686]

think i would have bid
1d-1h
2c*-3c**
4d-4h
5d

2c=strong hand waiting
3c=extras no clear bid

[Antrax]

1♥ would've 4+ and forcing (how else can you play it?). I guess partner wanted to cue bid to get an idea of what I overcalled with, probably was planning to raise 2NT to 3 or raise a major to 4.
The reason I'm wondering if the contract is good is that most partnerships stopped at the 3-level, and I went down when the play went club to Q, N continuing K and A. I ruffed high (S pitching), and found a 4-1 ♦break with the T on my left. I probably couldn't play the hand better (I even played the ♣9 from hand on the first trick), which is why I wondered about the bidding, as I often do when most pairs don't reach the same contract.

[Cyberyeti]

Antrax, on 2011-December-07, 07:28, said:

1♥ would've 4+ and forcing (how else can you play it?). I guess partner wanted to cue bid to get an idea of what I overcalled with, probably was planning to raise 2NT to 3 or raise a major to 4.
The reason I'm wondering if the contract is good is that most partnerships stopped at the 3-level, and I went down when the play went club to Q, N continuing K and A. I ruffed high (S pitching), and found a 4-1 ♦break with the T on my left. I probably couldn't play the hand better (I even played the ♣9 from hand on the first trick), which is why I wondered about the bidding, as I often do when most pairs don't reach the same contract.

I hadn't considered this layout, if the hand with 2 clubs had 3 or 4 hearts, then 4♥ would have made.

If NS were playing some sort of strong no trump, 5 card major system, I think you're very unlucky to catch this layout, and 5♦ is much more likely to be the place to be. I'd suggest 4234 is a much more likely shape for N than his actual holding, but playing weak and 4 then 4♥ may well be the place to be as this becomes a lot more likely.

[broze]

We'd probably bid:

(1♣) - 1♦ - (p) - 1♥
(p) - 2♣¹ - (p) 3♣²
(p) - 3♥³ - (p) - 3♠
(p) - 4♦⁴ - (p) - 5♦

1) Opening values, forcing, denies 4 card Major
2) Asks for a ♣ stopper
3) No club stopper, exactly 3♥
4) Offers choice of game. P will bid 5♦ at IMPs and perhaps 4♥ at MPs

[mike777]

Good OP

It raises some basic questions on how to overcall, respond and rebid:
1) what does a 1Major response show 4 or 5+?
2) is 1M even forcing and if so how high?
3) ON this auction what is a 2c rebid by the 1d overcaller?

[mikeh]

For me 1♥ or 1♠ would always promise 5+, altho I have been thinking, recently, about whether to make it 4+.....we'd probably need to get into support doubles if we did, since opener may be bidding again.

In fact, my understanding is that 5+ is standard, tho I haven't seen any discussion of it in many years.

So to me, the auction makes good sense and I applaud EW for reaching a good spot

Btw, in response to one aspect of mike777's post....I don't think having 1M as non-forcing is playable, nor is it remotely standard afaik.

[mike777]

I think there is alot of debate whether a new suit after an overcall should be forcing. I am not taking sides but I think alot of people in fact do play a new suit as nonforcing.

In any event a 1d overcall at MP at fav vul here can be pretty weak.

-----------------

C. After Our Suit Overcall of a One-Bid

After our simple overcall of a one-bid:


(a) [default]

A new-suit bid by an unpassed advancer is natural and nonforcing in all cases.

[leaf]

natural and forcing.

[leaf]

always natural, but forcing only after a two-level overcall.

(b1) [default]

When new-suit advances are forcing, a cue-bid guarantees a fit, a jump cue-bid is a mixed (i.e., semi-preemptive) raise that shows at least one defensive trick, a new-suit bid followed by a same-suit rebid is invitational, and a new-suit jump is a fit-jump.

[leaf]

weakish.

(b2) When new-suit advances are nonforcing, a cue-bid may be either a strong raise or a prelude to a forcing bid in a new suit, a jump cue-bid is a mixed (i.e., semi-preemptive) raise that shows at least one defensive trick, a new-suit bid followed by a same-suit rebid is weakish, and a new-suit jump is invitational.

(c1) [default]

When a new-suit advance would have been forcing over responder’s pass, if that opponent should bid, the new-suit advance is nonforcing.

[leaf]

forcing.

(d) [default]

Over a bid by responder, a jump below-game new-suit advance of an overcall is a fit-jump.

[leaf]

invitational.

[leaf]

preemptive.

(e) Single raise similar to single raise of major-suitone-bid; direct jump-raises preemptive.



A one-notrump advance of an overcall shows 8-11 points and a stopper in opener’s suit, regardless of vulnerability and suit opened; two notrump is similar, 12-13 points (less after a two-level overcall).

Among advancer’s actions when responder bids a new suit:

(a) a double shows length in the unbid suit plus a tolerance for overcaller’s suit;

(b) a cue-bid in opener’s suit is similar to one had responder passed;

© a cue-bid in responder’s suit is a strong raise of overcaller’s suit;
-------------


http://www.bridgewor...d&f=bwsall.html

[Cascade]

I don't see why you wouldn't bid 1Major with a four card suit after a 1♦ overcall. How else do you find a 4=4 fit.

There are definitely two schools of thought about new suits after an overcall with regard to whether they are forcing or not.

When I first started playing I was taught and read that a new suit was not forcing. At some stage I changed to forcing. Now I am considering at least for some auctions changing back to non-forcing.

[mike777]

Cascade, on 2011-December-07, 12:41, said:

I don't see why you wouldn't bid 1Major with a four card suit after a 1♦ overcall. How else do you find a 4=4 fit.

At fav vul pard can have almost nothing here.

If we start with a cuebid and pard has something he can bid his 4 card major. That is how we find our 4-4 fit.

If pard has nothing he will rebid 2d and I will just pass. We may miss a 4-4 fit but game should be remote.

If vul and pard rebids 2d I will cue again in hopes of finding a 4-4 fit.

---


Of course that still leaves open the debate of whether we should respond with a 4 card suit or if a new suit should be forcing.

[han]

mikeh, on 2011-December-07, 12:10, said:

I don't think having 1M as non-forcing is playable, nor is it remotely standard afaik.

I don't know if it is playable but I play it. I know that won't convince anybody but I think jlogic does too, perhaps he can confirm.

[mikeh]

han, on 2011-December-07, 14:05, said:

I don't know if it is playable but I play it. I know that won't convince anybody but I think jlogic does too, perhaps he can confirm.

If you play it, then I will accept that I was (not for the first nor last time) guilty of hyperbole. However, I am puzzled as to how your methods work.

Do you jumpshift to force (losing the fit-jump)? Or do you cuebid?

If the latter, then don't you have a problem next round?

While there are many scenarios, here's one:

(1♣) 1♦ (P) 2♣ (P)

I assume that overcaller has to rebid 2♦ with all minimum range hands.....he can hardly afford to bid 2♠ with, for example, Qxxx xx KQJxx xx.

Now advancer can't afford to pass 2♦ for fear of missing an 8 or 9 card major suit fit, to play in a 5-2 or 5-1 diamond fit.

But is 2M forcing now? if so, how far is it forcing? How do we get off the train when we want to while staying aboard on the better hands?

1♠ as a F1 allows us to pass 2♦ readily, knowing we have no spade fit and that partner is limited. Otoh, a 2♠ raise means we have found our fit, and we can stop there if we have a minimum F1 response....how do you stop below 3♠?

I appreciate that playing 1♠ as NF doesn't mean it is weak...I assume that you play it as constructive....but there will be hands on which you want to force without forcing to the 3-level.

Also, when you have both majors, isn't it easier to play that 1♠ is F1 and now, over the hypothetical 2♦, we can bid 2♥? Whether that is F1 again or NF, as I would play it, it gets both our suits in at the 2-level, while are you not forced to the 3-level to find the heart fit?

I'm not posing these questions to persuade you that the method is unplayable, but out of curiousity. I enjoy learning that matters I thought were clear are not, or are clear in a way other than my previous thinking.

So if you or other good players feel that 1M nf is better than F1, I'd like to learn why...maybe I'll change

[JLOGIC]

Antrax, on 2011-December-07, 06:29, said:

Matchpoints. NS vul. N deals and opens 1♣. Opponents silent from then on.
East:
♠97
♥KQ2
♦AKQ764
♣93

West:
♠AKJ6
♥A654
♦J3
♣JT5

Our auction:

Spoiler

(1♣)-1♦-(p)-2♣
(p)-3♦-(p)-4♦
(p)-4♥-(p)-4♠
(p)-5♦-(p)-p
(p)

Wondering if it's a good contract / bidding.

Your auction was perfectly sound to me and you found a perfectly fine spot. Well done avoiding 3N. At matchpoints 4H becomes an interesting contract, but without 3-3 hearts you might be in trouble since you have no entry to the diamonds. You might survive 4-2 hearts anyways though, if for instance the long heart has to follow to 3 rounds of diamonds. I think 5D is the best spot though, especially given that a normal field might play 3N down or might have trouble with this hand and play a partscore when figuring out they have no club stop.

Quote

The contract looks great but the 2♣ bid is wrong, use cuebid only with support or with hands that really have no alternative bid.

Here 4th hand has a clear 1♥ response, wich if you don´t play right now as 4+ cards and forcing, you should switch as soon as possible.

If minus voting still existed, I would minus vote this. I agree with "only cuebid with support or hands that have no alternative." To me a hand with 2 diamonds, no stopper in their suit, and a lot of points is an obvious hand with "no alternative bid." Playing 1H as 4+ is not standard. It is not the same as 1D p ?. Playing 1H as forcing is also NOT standard according to BWS (admittedly from 2001, but I would bet that not forcing is standard in the next edition also). I see mike777 has quoted the relevant passage.

The last time I won a bet on whether BWS default was forcing or not forcing was with a former partner who was canadian, david grainger, who had also never heard of new suits being NF, and also thought it was unplayable. I can only imagine that this treatment is very uncommon in Canada, compared to USA where it is standard in some regions, and unheard of in some regions. It is surprising to me how regional this seems to be. FWIW I have never played new suits over a 1 level overcall as forcing in any partnership other than with David. No doubt my light 1 level overcall style influences this.

[dwar0123]

How about
1♣ - 1♦ - p - 1♥
p - 3♦ - p - 3♠
p - 4♥ - p - 5♦
all pass

Intermediate here, explaining where my suggested auction fails would be helpful, interesting hand!

[JLOGIC]

mikeh, on 2011-December-07, 14:58, said:

While there are many scenarios, here's one:

(1♣) 1♦ (P) 2♣ (P)

I assume that overcaller has to rebid 2♦ with all minimum range hands.....he can hardly afford to bid 2♠ with, for example, Qxxx xx KQJxx xx.

If you have a hand that is worried that it is not good enough to move over 1C 1D p 2C p 2D p ? with a major, then you don't cuebid. You bid 1M and if partner passes, you haven't missed a game. You can play 1M as forcing and still bid it on a 14 count. Non forcing does not mean partner will routinely pass with reasonable hands. Partner will almost always raise you with a fit, and will always keep the auction alive with an opening bid.

xx xx KQJxx Qxxx would be an excellent example of a hand where I'd be happy to play 1M as NF. If it goes 1C 1D p 1M p and it's forcing. I have to bid 1N I guess. I would presumably also bid 1N on Ax Qx KQJxx Qxxx. That is an incredibly wide range, that is created by my inability to pass 1M, combined with the wide range of the overcall, and the wide range of the "forcing" 1M bid. I mean, at some point when you overcall with 7 or 8 to 18, and you make a forcing 1H bid with 7 or 8 plus, and you then have to bid, no one knows who has what. What range does responder invite to 2N with?

How about 1C 1D p 1H p 2D. if 1H was forcing, this could easily be a 5 card suit and a minimum. What does responder do? If overcaller is supposed to jump to 2N with 14 and 1 stopper or 13 and 6 diamonds, you could easily be too high. If overcaller is allowed to limit his hand by passing, and responder is allowed to limit his hand by bidding a non forcing 1M to 14 or so, bidding becomes much simpler. If you have 15+ is it really so bad to have to jump to 2H or cuebid and then bid 2H? You were going to force that high anyways. You are not losing much, and you are making your incredibly wide ranges more manageable, and you are allowing overcaller to limit his hand via his ability to pass. It is not about stopping in 1H, it is about being able to limit your wide ranges, when the lower limit is really necessary in competitive bidding.

This post has been edited by JLOGIC: 2011-December-07, 15:28

[JLOGIC]

dwar0123, on 2011-December-07, 15:20, said:

How about
1♣ - 1♦ - p - 1♥
p - 3♦ - p - 3♠
p - 4♥ - p - 5♦
all pass

Intermediate here, explaining where my suggested auction fails would be helpful, interesting hand!

You didn't fail, you got to a fine contract, but bidding 3D over a 1H response with KQx of hearts would be pretty dreadful, you could easily miss a 5-3 heart fit that you belong in if partner passes 3D. Alternatively, you could miss a good 3N if you are going to pull 3N to 4H and partner can have a 4 card suit. OPs auction would be what I would consider "perfect" bidding. The only thing I might do differently than OPs auction is to bid 2H over 2C which usually shows a 4 card suit, but it bids where I live and gives us more space, albeit being a bit of an operation. OPs auction is textbook...well my textbook anyways.

[JLOGIC]

Mikeh, logically if you dedicate all of these bids:

1C 1D p 2M
1C 1D p 2C followed by 2M
1C 1D p 1M

to more accurately defining your ranges, you will have more accurate auctions on those hands than if you always bid 1C 1D p 1M on the same hands.

You will be losing on hands where you have fits and cannot make a fit jump, or cannot assume partner has a 3 card fit for 2C followed by 2M, but you will definitely gain on hands where you have a major suit and no fit since you are dedicating more bids to that. I am not sure why you think this will make your bidding less accurate on those hands. For instance "if 2M is forcing, how do we know when to get off the train?" How will 1M forcing help you with that? You will just have to guess later. I think you are misunderstanding those who play 1M as NF as plying it as like denying an opening hand or something.

[cherdano]

mikeh, on 2011-December-07, 14:58, said:

I appreciate that playing 1♠ as NF doesn't mean it is weak...I assume that you play it as constructive....but there will be hands on which you want to force without forcing to the 3-level.

Why? Partner will only pass our one-level advance if he is 1. fairly minimum and 2. does not have a fit. When you have a hand where you are still worried about missing game in this scenario, your hand is probably good enough to force to the 3-level. (And I prefer jumps as natural and forcing when playing advances as non-forcing, so the cuebid still "promises" support, i.e. will have support 96.3% of the time.)

Anyway, the main advantage of playing advances as non-forcing that it gives additional space to narrow down overcaller's range: it allows him to pass! Given that overcaller's range is very wide in my preferred style (7-19?), this is a huge advantage. In addition, when overcaller passes, we are typically in a 5-2 fit at the one-level, most of the time a great spot when we don't have a fit in either of our main suits.