[phil_20686]

The stop card doesn't seem to do anything. Its normally super easy to tell if partner is thinking or not. If not, they often put their cards down, stare at the ceiling, rock on their chair impatiently etc etc. If they are thinking they study their cards, look pensive etc. I.e. it doesn't actually effect UI at all, it just gives the appearance of doing so.

Secondly, people who use the stop cards religiously are super annoying in RL. I understand their point on the first round, but rapidly gts to the point where you are jumping to slam after 3 rounds of cue bidding and a little old lady looks over her spectacles at you and refuses to pass for 15 seconds. I find it very vexing when people do this when there is zero chance of then actually having a bid. I think the stop card regulations should be changed to reflect this. In fact I think they should just be got rid of, they don't actually help.

[mjj29]

phil_20686, on 2011-November-30, 06:53, said:

The stop card doesn't seem to do anything. Its normally super easy to tell if partner is thinking or not. If not, they often put their cards down, stare at the ceiling, rock on their chair impatiently etc etc. If they are thinking they study their cards, look pensive etc. I.e. it doesn't actually effect UI at all, it just gives the appearance of doing so.

Well, they're not following the regulations correctly. I always try to look like I'm thinking for those ten seconds, studying my cards, etc (although, I'll admit that I've not checked with partner whether or not I succeed).

[phil_20686]

mjj29, on 2011-November-30, 08:51, said:

Well, they're not following the regulations correctly. I always try to look like I'm thinking for those ten seconds, studying my cards, etc (although, I'll admit that I've not checked with partner whether or not I succeed).

Basically everyone has mannerisms that let you know when they are thinking. I mean, maybe at WC level there is mileage in trying not to like you are thinking, but not really below that.

[aguahombre]

My partner has UI anyway; she knows I don't think.

[WellSpyder]

aguahombre, on 2011-November-30, 09:29, said:

My partner has UI anyway; she knows I don't think.

Isn't that AI, since I assume it is knowledge derived from your legal actions at the table? Of course, it must be disclosed properly....

[aguahombre]

WellSpyder, on 2011-November-30, 10:30, said:

Isn't that AI, since I assume it is knowledge derived from your legal actions at the table? Of course, it must be disclosed properly....

It might even be GBK.

[f0rdy]

Fluffy, on 2011-November-30, 05:38, said:

Here we have another group who pick pass on the first second, then wait 10 seconds with it in their hand before placing it. I think the problem is that the people don´t understand what the stop card is for, what problem it was designed to solve.


For what its worth, my experience with bad players is that even when someone bids as if there was no Stop!, the other gains less info from that, perhaps because it is more difficult to elaborate. Remember that most (almost every) people who cheat from UI do not do it on purpose.

Even with perfect procedure I think for many players with usual partners it would be possible for them to conclude if partner is thinking on bidding or just waiting for the time to pass just looking at corporal expression.

I'm one of a small-ish minority in those I play amongst who try to follow EBU stop card regulations, so I get to see an amusing variant on "not getting the point": those who patiently wait until I remove the stop card before taking any action, unfortunately including waiting that long before asking what my jump bid means. This rather reduces the utility of the 10s pause...

I'm not sure what I think of the regulations; I don't think they can work very well, but mostly because very few players (seem to?) manage to make a difficult decision in 10s: calls mostly seem to come either in a few seconds, or after 30+s.
I do find it annoying though, that following the regulations can cause more than just annoyance; with two different scratch partners, I've had auctions of the type:

Stuff
jump to (4H), insta-stop by opponents
10s pause before I made the obvious Pass
(Pass)
4S
AP

and a director call about the 4S call after the "BIT".
On one occasion the director correctly pointed out oppo were talking nonsense, but on the other (at a small club) I found out the next week we had kept our score "because there was no LA to the 4S bid"... :-s

PS: I love the idea of encouraging the stop by throwing the card at the opponents. I can't imagine it going down well, though...

[Vampyr]

f0rdy, on 2011-November-30, 12:53, said:

PS: I love the idea of encouraging the stop by throwing the card at the opponents. I can't imagine it going down well, though...

If it's someone I know well, I sometimes slap them with it if it is still out after they have acted.

[Fluffy]

Vampyr, on 2011-November-30, 13:31, said:

If it's someone I know well, I sometimes slap them with it if it is still out after they have acted.

I will try this, a pro I know has succeeded in the club he uses to play to stop players from picking a card moving it forward and putting it back to the pack to rethink by the simple process of slapping the hand with the card making it fall.

[blackshoe]

Fluffy, on 2011-November-30, 15:53, said:

I will try this, a pro I know has succeeded in the club he uses to play to stop players from picking a card moving it forward and putting it back to the pack to rethink by the simple process of slapping the hand with the card making it fall.

And he hasn't been called before an ethics committee?

If he does this to me, I call the director, and I fully expect a ruling that this is neither a played card nor a penalty card.

[Fluffy]

Only did this with friends, there is more on the table than laws and rights. Having some laughs is above them, at least at local level.

[jules101]

Alternate use of STOP card that I've noticed....

1) Place STOP card on table

2) Wait 10 secs or so before deciding on your bid, and/or forewarning opps that you are going to make jump bid (usually the former I recokon!)

3) Make bid, and pick up STOP card IMMEDIATELY!


Difficult to explain to oppos perhaps this isn't the correct procedure.

[Vampyr]

AlexJonson, on 2011-November-29, 14:03, said:

It's amusing in a way that the EBU regulations say the bidder has to keep the stop card out for a specific time.

That would solve several of your problems when you are declarer (few attempt to play with the stop card on the table).

Unfortunately this is not true in the South East.

Fluffy, on 2011-November-30, 05:38, said:

Even with perfect procedure I think for many players with usual partners it would be possible for them to conclude if partner is thinking on bidding or just waiting for the time to pass just looking at corporal expression.

Why would a player look at partner during these seconds though? If we keep our eyes on our own cards and we will not be able to tell whether partner is thinking or not. I thought that this is what most people try to do.

[jillybean]

I've stopped using the stop card altogether. Players either pause the required time or bid in normal tempo, regardless of wether the stop card is used or not.

If my RHO jumps or uses a stop card I will pause and try to look like I'm thinking and not simply counting to 10, except..

1N (stop) 3N/4C/4N
(stop) 2C or any first seat preempt
etc

The funniest stop card incident I've had is when a player put the stop card on the table, left it there and when I asked if they were going to remove it they replied "I'm thinkng!!!!"

[aguahombre]

jillybean, on 2011-December-03, 02:34, said:

If my RHO jumps or uses a stop card I will pause and try to look like I'm thinking and not simply counting to 10, except..

1N (stop) 3N/4C/4N
(stop) 2C or any first seat preempt
etc

You don't believe a first-seat preempt deserves your 10-second pause?

[bluejak]

Every so often you have a hand where a double might be reasonable after 1NT p 3NT. Such hands are usually not automatic doubles: you were probably expecting a different response. I have ten seconds to decide and partner will have no UI if I pass. Why? Because, of course, I always pause after this sequence.

I think people who pass quickly after this sequence are not just scofflaws but are doing themselves a disservice in the long run.

[blackshoe]

I used to believe the "it's optional" myth myself, and hence not use the stop card. This went on for some time, until I realized that since the regulation says we "should" use the stop card, failure to use it is an infraction. So I'm back to people ignoring my use of it.

[Jeremy69A]

Quote

I´ve been experimenting throwing the stop card into LHO´s bidding area so LHO would have to put his bid on top of the stop card if he was to bid quickly. So far no success (my aim is not good enough)

I've been experimenting with throwing the card on the floor with the comment "I won't be needing that then". Some think that might be an offence under zero tolerance or whatever the local name for this is.

[jallerton]

Jeremy69A, on 2011-December-03, 09:54, said:

I've been experimenting with throwing the card on the floor with the comment "I won't be needing that then". Some think that might be an offence under zero tolerance or whatever the local name for this is.

Careful, Jeremy. It would be particularly embarrassing if you were to be "called before an ethics committee" as Ed puts it.

[gnasher]

In my experience Jeremy's suggestion doesn't have any effect at all. Thye just look at you blankly, pick it up and hand it back to you on the assumption that you've dropped it accidentally, or just don't notice at all. A better method is to spend ten seconds or so reading aloud from the back of the Stop Card.