[Infidel]

P and I have been arguing for at least 2 years, with no sign of resolution, about the forcing/non-forcing nature of an uncontested 1/1/1 auction, e.g., 1d-1H-1S. Either way, either the 1S rebid has an unwieldy range of 12-to 18 or so (just short of a GF jump shift), or there is a huge rebid problem with intermediate hands.

I may have devised a solution (which starts out, of course, “do it MY way and treat 1S as nf”): make the jump shift on the intermediate (16-18) hands, and use Lebensohl as a control, just as if it had been a reverse, not a jump shift. Of course, the Jump Shift may also be the full-blown game force, so responder has to bypass the relay whenever he can’t stand a signoff, similar to Leb over a double of a weak 2.

Usually, when I come up with oddities like this, I get one of two reactions: A) “you, idiot, that is unworkable because…” or B) “you idiot, that was part of the (xxxxx) system proposed by (xxxxx) back in ’74…” or some such. Which is it this time? If it’s part of some previously- hammered out system, I’d like to read up on it; if it won’t work, I’d appreciate input on why. If relevant, we play a gadget-infested 2/1.

(Feel free to weigh in, also, on the theory that 1d-1H-1S is forcing in standard bidding…) Thanks in advance

[MrAce]

Infidel, on 2011-November-15, 14:04, said:

P and I have been arguing for at least 2 years, with no sign of resolution, about the forcing/non-forcing nature of an uncontested 1/1/1 auction, e.g., 1d-1H-1S. Either way, either the 1S rebid has an unwieldy range of 12-to 18 or so (just short of a GF jump shift), or there is a huge rebid problem with intermediate hands.

I may have devised a solution (which starts out, of course, “do it MY way and treat 1S as nf”): make the jump shift on the intermediate (16-18) hands, and use Lebensohl as a control, just as if it had been a reverse, not a jump shift. Of course, the Jump Shift may also be the full-blown game force, so responder has to bypass the relay whenever he can’t stand a signoff, similar to Leb over a double of a weak 2.

I think this part which suggests jumping with intermediate hands is unplayable unless you have 5-5 hand and using gazilli convention (you can find in forums about it) the suggestion of using lebensohl can not be applied if opener's jump is at 3 level but i think you are talking about jumps that can be made at 2 level. I dont think it worths that much trouble with only intermediate hands to jump because entire bridge world is suffering from jump shifts by opener even with pure game force hands, i think it is unmanagable with intermediate hands.

Infidel, on 2011-November-15, 14:04, said:

(Feel free to weigh in, also, on the theory that 1d-1H-1S is forcing in standard bidding…) Thanks in advance

There are some decent players in forums who plays 1-1-1 auctions forcing, i don't. To me 1-1-1 bids are upto 17 and non decent 18 hcp. Of course shape matters and we can evaluate our hand. There are couple of modern treatments about this issue such as Gazilli or Bart or whatever, but since u posted this in B/I forums i am not sure how wise it is to suggest you play these conventions. If you think you are advanced+ player then you should check it and discuss with your pd. If not i would suggest you to play most common treatment because then you can easily find decent players to ask how a hand should be handled. If you play a system that is not being played by majority of the people then you are mostly in your own world and will improve slower.

[Infidel]

I do not quite understand the point here: a 1/1/1 auction can't be a 5-5 by opener, since the higher suit would be opened; and I don't see where Gazzilli comes into play: In the 1d-1H-1S auction, opener doesn't have the 2c relay available, unless he bypasses his 4-card Spade suit, does he? Or is there some other way to play Gazzilli that I'm not familiar with? I also don't know how to do the quotes here, and am groping around as I go; apologies if I'm not clear.

[kenrexford]

FWIW, I have had that treatment on a convention card with one partner for a few years. Thus:

1♣-1♦-2♥
1♣-1♦-2♠
1♣-1♥-2♠ and
1♦-1♥-2♠

All four of these auctions are ones where Lebensohl is used, and the jump shift is not strictly game-forcing. The reason that I personally like that auction type is that it just seems to make life easier.

Consider, as an example, two possible auctions.

First, I open 1♣ and partner bids 1♥. I jump to 2♠, which could be somewhat lighter than GF. Partner with a weak hand bids 2NT. Having a non-GF variety, I bid 3♣. I have now shown a 4♠/6♣ hand with serious playing strength but not GF.

Next, I try it the other way. I open 1♣, again, and partner bids 1♥. I rebid 1♠, and partner bids 1NT. I now jump to 3♣. I have shown the exact same hand. Nothing has changed.

But, what if partner has some balanced hand with values? Maybe 3433 shape and 13 HCP?

On the first, the auction starts 1♣-1♥, 2♠. Partner now bids 3♣, and we pursue a club slam in a GF sequence.

On the second, the auction starts 1♣-1♥, 1♠. Partner bids 3NT, and I am stuck.

My concern is not remotely a matter of whether 1♠ would be forcing or not. My concern is that auctions end up escalating very rapidly when I bid a heavy, shapely 1♠ and partner has a fit for my club suit with values, but preempts us into 3NT or some other troublesome high bid.

[MrAce]

Infidel, on 2011-November-15, 18:18, said:

I do not quite understand the point here: a 1/1/1 auction can't be a 5-5 by opener, since the higher suit would be opened; and I don't see where Gazzilli comes into play: In the 1d-1H-1S auction, opener doesn't have the 2c relay available, unless he bypasses his 4-card Spade suit, does he? Or is there some other way to play Gazzilli that I'm not familiar with? I also don't know how to do the quotes here, and am groping around as I go; apologies if I'm not clear.

No, sorry i was not clear, my bad, i was referring to jump with intermediate hands being made with 5-5 in gazilli. And i missed that you are asking only the jump shifts by opener when 1 level bid was available. Not 1♥-1♠-3♣. So just disregard if u will please.

My opinions stands still though, about playing 1-1-1 forcing and jump shifts with intermediate hands. You did not explain (or i missed that one too) that what do you actually mean by intermediate hands and shape ? Are u suggesting to bid;

1♦-1♥
2♠ showing 15-17 hcp and 5♦+4♠ ? If so this is definetely not playable even if you apply lebensohl imo. Your pd will respond with 5+ hcp, most of us respond with much weaker hands but lets say 6+. So even if you manage to learn he is weak by 2NT, u are comitting your side to a 3 level contract with total misfit and i am having hard time to understand the merits of it.

Also, assume that he bid 2 NT and u bid 3♣ and he bid 3♦, you will not even know if he has a weak hand and making a preference bid or has a real support with 4 cards. Because u will have some 16 hcp 6-4 hand and all u need will be a real support, but pd having responded with 6 hcp, of course will go thru lebensohl and then bid 3♦. Sometimes u will have 3 card ♥ and when he lebensohl followed by 3 ♦ u will get into tank about missing a great ♥ fit or not.

I mean u can say that i am looking at the negative side of it, but what is the gain really ? If u are going to play a system as odd as this is, i expect to gain a lot when it works, however i just cant see how you will be ahead of the natural bidders with this style.

Playing 1-1-1 as forcing is a style, a style that i played a lot, and i dont like it. However it is legit and it has merits to it as oppose to what you suggested (or at least i thought you suggested) about jumps shift while 1 bid available showing intermediate hands.

[Zelandakh]

MrAce, on 2011-November-15, 14:28, said:

I think this part which suggests jumping with intermediate hands is unplayable unless you have 5-5 hand and using gazilli convention (you can find in forums about it) the suggestion of using lebensohl can not be applied if opener's jump is at 3 level but i think you are talking about jumps that can be made at 2 level. I dont think it worths that much trouble with only intermediate hands to jump because entire bridge world is suffering from jump shifts by opener even with pure game force hands, i think it is unmanagable with intermediate hands.

It certainly is not unplayable because it was part of a system I played in my first year of playing bridge with real people and we won the league that year despite a number of poor methods and no experience of card play whatsoever. I would agree that it is not the best method but it is actually quite nice for beginners who are struggling to handle the wide range for minimum rebids in standard.