[BunnyGo]

This came up a little while ago, and wyman and I disagreed (well, I don't think either of us had a really strong opinion, but we differed on what we thought was happening). The agreement we have for minorwood, is that the trump suit must already be agreed upon before 4m can be a minorwood bid (and we must be in a GF auction).

Our auction was:

1D-1S
3N*-4D

3N showed (6)7+ solid diamonds and a hand too good for gambling 3NT. Is 4D minorwood, or asking partner to Q or otherwise investigate slam?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

One method that I like is:
-- Minorwood if suit agreement is BELOW the 4-level . ( eg: 1m - 2m!( inverted ), etc, etc 4m = Minorwood; by either partner )

-- Kickback if suit agreement AT the 4-level.

So in your case:
1D - 1S
3N* - 4D ( suit agreement )
4H! ( Kickback )

[wyman]

BunnyGo, on 2011-November-14, 07:28, said:

This came up a little while ago, and wyman and I disagreed

Unsurprising

[manudude03]

My meta-agreement is that 4m is always minorwood unless it is a direct removal from 3NT (or it's a pre-emptive bid). As such, 4♦ there is not minorwood, but if it had gone 3NT-4♣-4♦ then it would be minorwood.

[Phil]

manudude03, on 2011-November-14, 09:46, said:

My meta-agreement is that 4m is always minorwood unless it is a direct removal from 3NT (or it's a pre-emptive bid). As such, 4♦ there is not minorwood, but if it had gone 3NT-4♣-4♦ then it would be minorwood.

Wow this is one of the times where Minorwood should apply. When I have played it, MW has applied when we jump to 4m, or pulling 3N.

I don't like Minorwood BTW.

[aguahombre]

1m-1M
3N is very specific for us; solid minor, short in responder's major, and primes in each of the other suits. 6-3-3-1 distribution is expected (16-18). With other hand-types, we do something other than rebid 3NT, and that allows responder to take over.

Whether you like that style or not, we have had all of the following follow-ups occur with excellent outcomes:

1D-1S
3NT-?

4C=Minorwood for clubs (might convert to different strain later).
4D=Minorwood for diamonds (see above)
4M=to play (5-3 fit or 7-1 fit, depending on which major).
4N=RKC for Hearts!

The key to being able to do the above is (to repeat myself) the exact nature of the 3NT rebid. Without that, NO WAY.

[manudude03]

Phil, on 2011-November-14, 10:29, said:

Wow this is one of the times where Minorwood should apply. When I have played it, MW has applied when we jump to 4m, or pulling 3N.

I don't like Minorwood BTW.

The reason I don't play 3NT-4D as minorwood is pretty simple. It is rarely only key cards which concerns us. Partner will usually be in a much better position to place the contract, and if not then either their cuebid will tell us or we don't belong in slam. Playing 4D as minorwood ends up cramping up the rest of the 4 level. In slower auctions where 3NT ends up being bid to show a club stopper, then we may not know for certain about the club control. For me, 4D would simply say we are playing in diamonds, and I don't have a club control.

In this specific auction, if you are playing 4D as minorwood, then there are precious few bids to show slam interest. We need 4S to play. 4H may well be construed as a choice of game (6 reasonable spades say) or even natural (6-5?). 4NT is quantitative, so our only other clear slam interest bid is 4C, and hence can't promise a control.

Admittedly I do lose out when I only have 1 key card and end up possibly risking slam off 2 aces, but that's a rare occurrence, usually we would cue something and then sign off when that's the case.

[Zelandakh]

By your stated meta-agreements 4D should not be minorwood. It is quite possible to make an exception for solid suits shown below 4m if you prefer this way though. My preferred way of handling 4m is for it to be a slam try. Partner bids the next step if declining the slam try or else shows their key cards if accepting starting with 4m+2 as the first step. After a decline then 4m+2 from the 4m bidder is unambiguously RKCB. This gives you a little more fine grading before launching into a slam sequence at the cost of starting your key card asks 2 steps higher.

[blackshoe]

"We play minorwood"
"What's that?"
<explains>
"So when is four of your minor minorwood?"
"Never."

[Flem72]

BunnyGo, on 2011-November-14, 07:28, said:

The agreement we have for minorwood, is that the trump suit must already be agreed upon before 4m can be a minorwood bid (and we must be in a GF auction).

Very timely question as I had a hand this weekend that brought up the "prior agreement required" or "always" issue. I have been moving toward "prior agreement required" or Redwood, and this hand moved me further, faster.

Our auction was:

1C-P-1H-P
3S-3N-4C

It seemed to me that 3N showed either 18-19 balanced (could be 4-3-3-3) or 16-17ish with long C and good S stops. I believe that in such ambiguity, 4C must be asking partner to DSI: support H, Q or otherwise investigate slam. My hand:

x
AJ98xx
AK
Jxxx.

In order to answer the OP, I guess the meaning of "too good for G3NT" would be material. If it is "somewhere between a G3NT and a SA 3D rebid," I'd sure like to be able to play 4D.

Regards and Happy Trails,

Scott Needham
Boulder, Colorado, USA

[blackshoe]

Flem72, on 2011-November-14, 22:27, said:

Our auction was:

1C-P-1H-P
3S-3N-4C
Boulder, Colorado, USA

It's too early in the morning for this. Was it

1C-(P)-1H-(P)
3S-(3NT)-4C

or (opponents passing throughout)

1C-1H
3S-3NT
4C

I suppose the latter. IAC, what was 3S?

[Zelandakh]

It sounds to me more like:-
1C - (p) - 1H - (3S)
3N - (p) - 4C

[aguahombre]

Fun to guess. I will take a shot, too.

The first line of the auction established that the opps were not bidding.
The second line contained the bidding side's continuations (as in Blackshoe's second diamgram).

[Flem72]

blackshoe, on 2011-November-15, 07:16, said:

It's too early in the morning for this. Was it

1C-(P)-1H-(P)
3S-(3NT)-4C

1C-(P)-1H-(3S)
3NT-P-4C

My bad.

[aguahombre]

Flem72, on 2011-November-14, 22:27, said:

Our auction was:

1C-P-1H-3S
3n-P-4C (corrected)

It seemed to me that 3N showed either 18-19 balanced (could be 4-3-3-3) or 16-17ish with long C and good S stops. I believe that in such ambiguity, 4C must be asking partner to DSI: support H, Q or otherwise investigate slam. My hand:

x
AJ98xx
AK
Jxxx.

It is possible to agree that double would have been the call with the flat 18-19, and that 3NT only showed the long club hand; still that would not automatically allow a Minorwood agreement for 4C, as you might have a hand which wants to show the club fit and let partner DSI.

The given hand could try 4D as a cue for the long clubs, but would like to have had 4C be Minorwood. I think reverting to Kickback sometimes and using Minorwood in other situations would be too confusing unless you had taken a long time to sort out the differences.

Am willing to give up the ability to play the hand in 4D with a weak 2-4-6-1 hand, if it ever happens.