[wyman]

Per mikeh's primer on reverse bidding, in a Lebensohl context, the following sequences are a one round force, showing 5+ cards in the major and can include weak hands:

1C - 1H
2D - 2H

1C - 1S
2D/H - 2S

1D - 1S
1H - 2S

So, my question is: what sequences are non-GF?

e.g., Is 2N by opener NF?
What does responder do with a WJS in spades (assume a non-WJS context)?
What does the sequence 1X - 1M; 2Y - 2N!; 3C - 3M [Y > X] show?
What does an immediate (2nd bid) leap to 3M show?

There are several other subtle auctions in here I'm sure, and maybe after some initial clarification I'll start asking more questions. Just wondering how you all sort this out.

Not looking for "we play transfers after reverses," though I've gotten that a few times and it seems like a reasonable treatment.

TIA.

[wyman]

bump

Does this belong elsewhere?

[MrAce]

wyman, on 2011-November-10, 19:05, said:

bump

Does this belong elsewhere?

No, not at all imo. In fact, as a person who taught bridge long years, i can easily tell it is one of the best topics to debate what is forcing and what is not in B/I forums. As long as it is kept simple without us regulars trying to show how much and how deep our knowledge is about the subject (whatever subject that maybe) i think any attempt to contribute something in this forum is positive. As long as a B/I player feels he has learnt something that is simple and satisfying instead of feeling overwhelmed or confused, the topic meets its goal.

The problem, i assume, we do not have too many beginners and intermediates in the forums. I can not tell why. I think eventhough the intentions were good, in the past we debated some stuff here that can bore even an expert player.

I have learnt one thing in years from bridge mentoring, that when it comes to beginners and intermediates, but especially beginners, the most valuable contribution is to make them love the game. People get good at things that they like one way or another. Easier said than done though, i know

I am only guessing, the reason this topic is not replied yet is, people waiting B/I players to work on it. But i doubt there are too many of them.

[awm]

In these auctions:

(1) 3NT shows game values, normally 1435-type shape with singleton in responder's suit.
(2) Jump in the fourth suit is a splinter with a game-forcing 3415-type hand (three-card support for partner).
(3) Three of partner's suit shows three-card support (so normally 3415-ish) with a minimum reverse.
(4) 2NT is natural and not forcing, normally 1435-type shape with singleton in responder's suit.
(5) Three of either of opener's suits is natural and not forcing (4/6 and 5/6 with minimum reverse values).
(6) The fourth suit is an artificial game force, and denies holding three-card support for partner or a sufficient holding in the 4th suit for 3NT.

On most 2425-type hands I would open 1NT or rebid 2NT, although exceptions can be made for really concentrated values in the suits.

[mike777]

wyman, on 2011-November-07, 14:40, said:

Per mikeh's primer on reverse bidding, in a Lebensohl context, the following sequences are a one round force, showing 5+ cards in the major and can include weak hands:

1C - 1H
2D - 2H

1C - 1S
2D/H - 2S

1D - 1S
1H - 2S

So, my question is: what sequences are non-GF?

e.g., Is 2N by opener NF?
What does responder do with a WJS in spades (assume a non-WJS context)?
What does the sequence 1X - 1M; 2Y - 2N!; 3C - 3M [Y > X] show?
What does an immediate (2nd bid) leap to 3M show?

There are several other subtle auctions in here I'm sure, and maybe after some initial clarification I'll start asking more questions. Just wondering how you all sort this out.

Not looking for "we play transfers after reverses," though I've gotten that a few times and it seems like a reasonable treatment.

TIA.

I only play 4th suit rebid by opener as forcing after those starts.
If a minor, it shows 5440 distribution. If a major it must be artificial.

1) so 2nt rebid by opener is nf
2) responder with wjs would bid as he has here. rebid of major is weakish with 5+
3) a jump rebid by responder to 3 level is natural and gf say 9-10+ hcp almost always 6+ cards with less you bid something else.

[han]

2NT, 3S and 3D are NF for me.

[Antrax]

MrAce, on 2011-November-10, 21:50, said:

I am only guessing, the reason this topic is not replied yet is, people waiting B/I players to work on it. But i doubt there are too many of them.

You guys wait for B/Is to answer questions? I never answer other B/Is questions as even if I have the right answer, no doubt an expert also knows it and enough of them reply. I only answer in other people's topics if they're posed as a B/I problem to begin with.
This thread seems like a genuine question and not a quiz. Why would you wait for B/Is to reply to it?

[MrAce]

Antrax, on 2011-November-11, 04:32, said:

Why would you wait for B/Is to reply to it?

Good question

Perhaps i used wrong sentence. My intention was different. But you have valid point, i should have replied to the question. As you said very well i took it as a quiz by Wyman to B/I players so A/E players would know before they reply how to approach.

[wyman]

MrAce, on 2011-November-11, 16:12, said:

As you said very well i took it as a quiz by Wyman to B/I players so A/E players would know before they reply where B/I posters need a hint.

Well awm and han already diverge, so whatever it is, I think it is not universal among experts!

[MrAce]

wyman, on 2011-November-11, 16:24, said:

Well awm and han already diverge, so whatever it is, I think it is not universal among experts!

I don't see the diverge in their responses, am i missing something ?

Edit : oh i see what u mean, Awm says "3 of either suit of opener is nf"

[Mbodell]

wyman, on 2011-November-10, 19:05, said:

bump

Does this belong elsewhere?

FWIW I didn't reply because I'm not sure what is standard. I've had situations with good partners where we are uncomfortable after these sequences with which is forcing versus non-forcing.

[bd71]

han, on 2011-November-11, 03:15, said:

2NT, 3S and 3D are NF for me.

So 3♥ appears to be forcing...can you help us out on the rationale for that?

Seems like 3♥ could just be bidding out a 65xx minimum reverse pattern, and you could use 4♣(fourth suit) as the all-purpose forcing bid as others have suggested. Or is your thinking that a minimum-reverse 65xx hand is too rare to cater to, and you just want to bid that pattern out ni a forcing context at a lower level to keep room for slam exploration?

[bd71]

wyman, on 2011-November-07, 14:40, said:

What does the sequence 1X - 1M; 2Y - 2N!; 3C - 3M [Y > X] show?

Nobody has tried to answer this. I would tend to think it means 7+ in the major and a very bad hand that does not want to be in game across from a minimum reverse. On target or off?

[wyman]

bd71, on 2011-November-14, 10:56, said:

Nobody has tried to answer this. I would tend to think it means 7+ in the major and a very bad hand that does not want to be in game across from a minimum reverse. On target or off?

I guess I was asking what is standard. If I were designing it myself, I'd want:

responder rebids 2M, rebids 3M to be his weakest action
responder jumps to 3M (immediately after the reverse) to be natural and slammish
responder bids 3M after lebensohl relay to be natural and forcing, showing 6+ with doubt about strain.

I could see reversing the 2nd and 3rd, but this way is more in line with other leb auctions.

edit: and I don't want to get into direct 4M vs 2N-3C-4M, but I guess all these things could be defined much more precisely in theory.