[flametree]

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Perhaps i am too greedy. Perhaps u are too pessimistic, try some 16 or 17 hcps pd may have with 5332 hands.

I may well be too pessimistic; per the OP's auction, it felt like we had got very high and I still didn't quite have a feel for partner's hand, so I thought it sensible to play in the "safe" 9 card trump fit. In favour of no-trumps are the long side suit, double holds in at least 3 suits, maybe 4, and also the (original Jacoby) auction has given very little help to the defence - so if there is a killing lead, they may not find it. I certainly wouldn't begrudge anyone a top board if they chose 6NT, and I agree that I would be worried that many in the room may have opened partner's hand 1NT, after which 6NT seems very likely to be bid. I'm still not sure it's making though, so I'd probably stick to 6S.

I agree that 5-3-3-2 hands seem more likely to be good for either grand or 6NT since partner likely has 3x hearts. My main problem with the auction was that I wasn't clear what "15-17 no shortage" might mean as a response to 1S-2NT and I deliberately didn't include 5-3-3-2 hands because partner didn't open 1NT. Partner has at best QJT9x in spades, so even die-hard 1S bidders with that shape would be tempted to open 1NT given the slow winners in the long suit.

Quote

excluding the hands again that you packed KQ tide vs my Ax doubleton

Partner has lots of points in the minors, but seemingly a doubleton in one of them. KQ doubleton is hardly out of the question.

Quote

I never said i bid jacoby 2NT and grab the NT from my side

Even if you begin 1S-2H won't no-trumps still be bid from your side? Genuine question, it seems more likely that I'll be the one bidding 4NT or deciding to bid 6NT if we've avoided it up till then? I agree with an earlier poster (TWO4BRIDGE) who said that it's the player with the kings who should go ace-asking, but if that isn't the strong hand, it can be difficult to persuade partner to do it.

[the hog]

I would certainly bid 2H on this, as I like to show a source of tricks. You want to be in 6, not 7 as 7 requires a 2-2 break.

[MrAce]

flametree, on 2011-November-14, 20:03, said:

Even if you begin 1S-2H won't no-trumps still be bid from your side? Genuine question, it seems more likely that I'll be the one bidding 4NT or deciding to bid 6NT if we've avoided it up till then? I agree with an earlier poster (TWO4BRIDGE) who said that it's the player with the kings who should go ace-asking, but if that isn't the strong hand, it can be difficult to persuade partner to do it.

It depends, for example, assume he doesnt have ♥ fit.

1♠-2♥
2♠-3♠
3NT(for cue purposes serious/unserious 3nt)

Or

1♠--2♥
2NT...

In the original hand if i bid with my pd he is grabbing NT, but thats hardly an evidence for other pairs of course.

flametree, on 2011-November-14, 20:03, said:

Partner has lots of points in the minors, but seemingly a doubleton in one of them. KQ doubleton is hardly out of the question.

Its not out of question of course. I find it unlikely or unlucky, as it would be very lucky to find KJ tide ♥. Note that when i suggested 6NT, the auction started with jacoby 2NT and responder had no clue about the ♥ length of opener untill dummy hits the table. All he knew (and said) was pd has 15/17 hcp balanced or semi balanced hand and that pd doesnt have ♥K. I may have overlooked at the dangers of 6NT with so many hcps combined.

[flametree]

the hog, on 2011-November-14, 21:11, said:

I would certainly bid 2H on this, as I like to show a source of tricks. You want to be in 6, not 7 as 7 requires a 2-2 break.

I assume you play 2/1? If 2H wasn't game-forcing would you be less keen?

[MrAce]

flametree, on 2011-November-14, 21:25, said:

I assume you play 2/1? If 2H wasn't game-forcing would you be less keen?

Antrax, on 2011-November-14, 00:18, said:

We play 2/1 and jacoby NT. 2♥ here must be a five-card suit (not sure if this is standard in 2/1 or not).

OP asked the question mentioning the system, regardless of what we personally play, it is correct to debate in the highlighted system.

[Antrax]

MrAce, on 2011-November-14, 14:42, said:

And it is not about it being great for this hand, u do not need to set the wrong trump in order to learn the ♥ K, if pd raises to 3♥ i think you shd bid 3♠ instead of asking keycards on ♥ suit because as i said earlier ♠Q is a vital card for you as well, you can learn ♥K when trumps are set to ♠ but you can not learn ♠Q if trumps are set to ♥ (unless u play some sort of fancy 6 keycard but i am trying to be simple in B/I forums)

First of all, thank you for that - we certainly don't play 6KCB. My problem is actually much simpler than that - once the bidding goes 1♠-2♥, 3♥ then 3♠ would be a cue in spades, not genuine support. Probably this is a bad agreement but otherwise how can you cue bid spades when hearts are agreed? Or is this the only sequence where 3♠ should be natural?
(We have a sort of meta-agreement that once a major suit was agreed we don't look for other fits or NT. It's a blunt tool based on many posts I read in this forum about looking for a secondary fit and sometimes playing in the 4-4 and not 5-3 etc, but it saves us a lot of confusion)

[Mbodell]

Antrax, on 2011-November-15, 00:05, said:

First of all, thank you for that - we certainly don't play 6KCB. My problem is actually much simpler than that - once the bidding goes 1♠-2♥, 3♥ then 3♠ would be a cue in spades, not genuine support. Probably this is a bad agreement but otherwise how can you cue bid spades when hearts are agreed? Or is this the only sequence where 3♠ should be natural?
(We have a sort of meta-agreement that once a major suit was agreed we don't look for other fits or NT. It's a blunt tool based on many posts I read in this forum about looking for a secondary fit and sometimes playing in the 4-4 and not 5-3 etc, but it saves us a lot of confusion)

I think that auction should certainly be natural. But there are others where you have to wonder what "agreed" means like:

1♠-2♥
3♦-3♠

Is spades agreed here or can opener try 3nt?

[MrAce]

Antrax, on 2011-November-15, 00:05, said:

First of all, thank you for that - we certainly don't play 6KCB. My problem is actually much simpler than that - once the bidding goes 1♠-2♥, 3♥ then 3♠ would be a cue in spades, not genuine support. Probably this is a bad agreement but otherwise how can you cue bid spades when hearts are agreed? Or is this the only sequence where 3♠ should be natural?
(We have a sort of meta-agreement that once a major suit was agreed we don't look for other fits or NT. It's a blunt tool based on many posts I read in this forum about looking for a secondary fit and sometimes playing in the 4-4 and not 5-3 etc, but it saves us a lot of confusion)

Good point.

And to be honest this is a tuff issue. I am very sure we debated this very same issue somewhere in the forums but i cant find it now. Anyway, dont think u have a bad agreement, i think your meta agreement is a good one. And i also think you have a decent logic that supports it.

So maybe it is me who needs to revise his methods over this issue instead of being stubburn about it and say "thanks" to you.

[MrAce]

Mbodell, on 2011-November-15, 01:57, said:

I think that auction should certainly be natural. But there are others where you have to wonder what "agreed" means like:

1♠-2♥
3♦-3♠

Is spades agreed here or can opener try 3nt?

I am pretty sure ♠ are agreed here. Now there might be hands where u have to bid 3 ♠ with only 2 such as Ax KQxxx KJx xxx , but this extreme cases should not change the definition of this 3♠ imo.

[MrAce]

Mbodell, on 2011-November-14, 03:45, said:

Presumably you play frivolous or serious 3nt so if partner does bid 4♠ over 1♠-2♥-2♠-3♠ then he has an absolute dog and you don't want to be in slam.

This is the issue, it is not as simple as you anticipate. But i dont know what u mean by "absolute dog" For example 12 hcp 5332 with best spot is 5 ... is this an absolute dog that u dont wanna be in slam ?

Qxxxx Kxx Ax Kxx 12 hcp and we are probably cold for grandslam NT . Unfortunately knowing pd has a minimum balanced hand or knowing he has an 15-17 hcp hand is not helping much if we do not investigate it properly. As we discussed and in this example i just gave we can make grandslam vs a 12 hcp balanced hand or we can go down in slam vs pd's 16 hcp. This is why bridge is fun

[TWO4BRIDGE]

My summary gleaned from the replies ( and some of my own thoughts ):
1) With NO ♠Q forget about the grand.

2) In the following auction:
1S - 2H! ( 5+ cardss, GF )
3H - 3S

3S shows a 3+card FIT ( and is NOT a cue per se )

3) In double-fit auctions, 4NT is best used as 6 Ace key card ( which includes the highest rank Q only }.
The lower rank Q is "rolled into" the specific K-ask .

4) Give Opener the ♠ Q and take away either one of the minor Kings and the GRAND is odds on ( see MrAce's post just above this one ):
Opener
Q T 9 x x
K J x
A x
K x x

1S - 2H!
3H - 3S
3NT! - 4C
4D - 4NT ( 6 Ace )
5S ( 2 + sQ ) - 5NT
6C! - 7NT ( counting 5s, 5h, 1d, 2c )

[Zelandakh]

Antrax, on 2011-November-14, 00:18, said:

All vul, matchpoints. Partner deals and opens 1♠. This comes as a surprise, as this is your hand:
♠AK87
♥AQ642
♦43
♣AT

We play 2/1 and jacoby NT. 2♥ here must be a five-card suit (not sure if this is standard in 2/1 or not).
a) is it better to show the four-card support or show the side suit while game forcing?

I chose 2NT. The auction continued:
1♠-2NT, 3NT (15-17, no shortness)-4♣ (cue), 4♦-4♥, 4♠-4NT, 5♦ (1/4)
b) Now I deliberated between Q ask and 5NT. Which is better here? (5NT for us is specific kings)

I chose 5NT mostly as a way to let partner know we have all the key cards.
so 5NT, 6♣
c) And again I deliberated between 6♠, 6NT or continued probing.
As I was in love with my hand, I chose 6♥ (which asks for the king of hearts). Partner bid 6♠, which brings us to the next question:
d) Should I bid 6NT? I never know when to do that.

And finally:
e) Should we be in grand? Below is partner's hand:
♠T9643
♥KJ9
♦AK
♣K82

After the easy 6♠+1 (spades were 2-2), partner said he didn't bid the grand despite the ♥K as he already upgraded his 14-count and was worried we have a trump loser.

There is no "right" answer to this but depending on your choices it might be an idea to adapt the system to match. Probably the normal approach is to use a 2/1 when your side suit is a good source of tricks and you want to involve partner in the decision as to whether to look for slam. If the side suit is not a trick source, or if you do not need to consult then instead use J2NT. The disadvantage of this method is that the 4th trump may remain hidden. Add a 6th trump to Opener's hand here and you would show the trump queen over a Jacoby response but not over a 2/1. The alternative approach is to use your GF raise most of the time with 4 card support but to adjust the responses so that Responder can sometimes later show a good suit. The disadvantage here is in losing some bidding space where you perhaps need it most which sometimes will affect your cue auctions. For B/Is I would recommend initially sticking with the first approach. It is more standard and easier, requiring less discussion on follow-ups. FWiiW I use the second approach but only within the confines of a quite different system where the first approach does not make sense.

Now to your more specific questions...for b the queen ask is better. It is rare to want to be in a grand slam missing the trump queen without a 10 card fit. Furthermore, 5NT in b or cont8inued probinf after a queen ask would show all 5 key cards (or 4 plus a void) and the trump queen (or a 10 card fit). 6NT would obviously be very good for this hand and at MPs and is perhaps the "expert" bid. Again, for B/I I would suggest keeping things simple. Bid 6NT when you are confident that there are 12 tricks off the top, or 12 tricks losing the lead once with a double stop in each suit, or when 12 tricks in NT are more likely than not and the bidding tells you that the threat of a defensive ruff is very high (such as after a Lightner double). Finally, for e you are best off not in the grand. As above, bidding a grand slam off the trump queen is rarely right.

For the auction, you are fine up to 5D. Then just bid 5H. Partner will respond 5S which you can raise to 6S. The alternative route of starting with 2H would probably make no difference on this hand.

[Fluffy]

2♥ shwos 5 cards in 2/1, some forum regulars will know weird systems where it does not, but for all that I know all natural systems have 2♥ showing 5.

Bidding 5NT is a bad mistake, you can not go to grand investigation without spade queen. Partner WILL answer kings if he has the queen anyway.

Partner's decision to hide ♥K is very bad. He took a decision and must live with it. He doesn't know what you have, you do know what he's got, if you were missing a trump trick you wouldn't be trying for grand, thinking fo a trump loser is insulting you.

[Mbodell]

MrAce, on 2011-November-15, 02:22, said:

This is the issue, it is not as simple as you anticipate. But i dont know what u mean by "absolute dog" For example 12 hcp 5332 with best spot is 5 ... is this an absolute dog that u dont wanna be in slam ?

Qxxxx Kxx Ax Kxx 12 hcp and we are probably cold for grandslam NT . Unfortunately knowing pd has a minimum balanced hand or knowing he has an 15-17 hcp hand is not helping much if we do not investigate it properly. As we discussed and in this example i just gave we can make grandslam vs a 12 hcp balanced hand or we can go down in slam vs pd's 16 hcp. This is why bridge is fun

When I say an absolute dog, I mean in context a hand so bad for slam that it is the very bottom of your range when evaluated for slam. I certainly don't mean a control rich 12 count! I mean something more like QJxxx Jx KQxx Qx or (not possible given your hand, but possible for this sequence in general): AQxxx Qxx Qx QJx. I.e., a minimum quacky hand.

[flametree]

Fluffy, on 2011-November-15, 08:42, said:

Bidding 5NT is a bad mistake, you can not go to grand investigation without spade queen. Partner WILL answer kings if he has the queen anyway.

When partner asks for the trump queen and you have it, is there a way to show THREE kings alongside? My standard agreement with casual partners is to show the cheapest king, and bid no-trumps with 2. I've never needed to show three before!

[flametree]

double post sorry

[Zelandakh]

Show the cheapest king and if partner makes a further try then bid the grand. Partner should only sign off if they have no grand slam interest.

[aguahombre]

Often partner will ask for the queen merely because she wants to know if we hold the queen. Kings in addition are either already assumed or incidental information not needed. It is good to have an agreement that with the queen we show it AND the cheapest King. But, if more information is needed about Kings, pard will inquire. Responder has no guarante with the queen-ask that we have five key-cards, so no need to leak much more than what is asked.