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2m+1 "New Minor Forcing" After 1m - 1X; 2m

#1 User is offline   wyman 

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Posted 2011-November-07, 14:45

I've read various places on the forums that current thinking is that

1m - 1X
2m - 2m+1

is artificial and GF [not just F1, correct?]

Is this standard? and what are the common follow-up meta-agreements?

An example auction (though I'm interested in general as well):
1 - 1;
2 - 2;
3 - 3;
3N

What's (ostensibly) going on in this auction? Is 3H just a grope? What are opener's priorities over 3H?
"I think maybe so and so was caught cheating but maybe I don't have the names right". Sure, and I think maybe your mother .... Oh yeah, that was someone else maybe. -- kenberg

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#2 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2011-November-07, 14:53

Here is one version available online with a reasonable amount of detail.
(-: Zel :-)
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#3 User is offline   Gerben42 

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Posted 2011-November-07, 14:55

I think most play it as just invitational-plus, i.e. forcing for 1 round.

In this example auction:

1♣ - 1♠;
2♣ - 2♦;
3♣ = I still just have Clubs, sorry
- 3♥ = This creates the game force, and since we are bidding as natural as possible, this must show values and a problem.
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#4 User is offline   Mbodell 

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Posted 2011-November-08, 01:28

I have one partnership where 2m+1 is forcing and one where 3/2 and 2/2. In both cases it is artificial and game forcing and sort of feels like a 4sf response structure.
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#5 User is offline   wyman 

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Posted 2011-November-10, 19:06

Thanks for the input. The page Zel included was particularly useful.
"I think maybe so and so was caught cheating but maybe I don't have the names right". Sure, and I think maybe your mother .... Oh yeah, that was someone else maybe. -- kenberg

"...we live off being battle-scarred veterans who manage to hate our opponents slightly more than we hate each other.” -- Hamman, re: Wolff
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#6 User is offline   campboy 

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Posted 2011-November-11, 06:09

This is also sometimes called "Bourke relay"; Tournament Acol by Bird and Bourke includes a discussion of it.
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#7 User is offline   wyman 

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Posted 2011-November-11, 09:45

View Postcampboy, on 2011-November-11, 06:09, said:

This is also sometimes called "Bourke relay"; Tournament Acol by Bird and Bourke includes a discussion of it.


Thank you thank you.

It's nice to have a reference to point to when discussing this with new partners.
"I think maybe so and so was caught cheating but maybe I don't have the names right". Sure, and I think maybe your mother .... Oh yeah, that was someone else maybe. -- kenberg

"...we live off being battle-scarred veterans who manage to hate our opponents slightly more than we hate each other.” -- Hamman, re: Wolff
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#8 User is offline   bd71 

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Posted 2011-November-15, 10:43

View Postwyman, on 2011-November-07, 14:45, said:

An example auction (though I'm interested in general as well):
1 - 1;
2 - 2;
3 - 3;
3N

What's (ostensibly) going on in this auction? Is 3H just a grope? What are opener's priorities over 3H?


Since nobody's taken you up on this, I'll take a shot at interpreting. Am assuming that 2 was an artificial GF bid. I also haven't looked at any of the writeups to see if any of this is addressed specifically, so this is just trying to apply NMF/4SF type of logic to this situation.

3: denies 4, denies 3, denies 4, by infererence from all that shows 5+, denies having BOTH / stoppers for NT

3: showing 4 (and 5 by implication). You ask if this is "just groping"...seems like what is effectively the 2nd descriptive bid of your hand should still be honest, showing a full 4. You can save the "groping"/fragment-showing for the 3rd descriptive bid if needed.

3N: stopped, willing to play NT across from a 54xx shape. Likely 2335. Maybe 1336 or 2236.
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#9 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2011-November-15, 11:46

View Postcampboy, on 2011-November-11, 06:09, said:

This is also sometimes called "Bourke relay"; Tournament Acol by Bird and Bourke includes a discussion of it.

Yes, the Bourke Relay was written up in BW a few years back ( I believe ) .
Here is an example:

To take the easiest auction:

1c 1s 2c ?

2d = art GF
2h = natural, constructive
2s = to play
2nt = natural, invitational
3c = natural, invitational
3d / 3h = I am not sure but I think Bourke plays this as an
invitational two suiter
3s = natural, invitational
3nt = natural, to play
- - - - - - - - - - -
To take the hardest auction:

1h 1s 2h ?

2s = to play
2nt = natural, invitational
3c = art GF
3d = natural, invitational
3h = natural, invitational
3s = natural invitational
3nt = to play
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#10 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2011-November-16, 03:06

If you are willing to introduce some artificiality then you can use the first steps to show 4-5 distribution:

1C - 1S
2c - 2D:

2H = 5 clubs, 4 diamonds
2S = 5 clubs, 4 hearts

1C - 1H
2C - 2D:

2H = 5 clubs, 4 diamonds

1D - 1S
2D - 2H:

2S = 5 diamonds, 4 hearts

This has the advantage that all higher steps promise a 6-card minor.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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