[ahydra]

---

This was one hand from the club tonight. The play went a club lead taken by Ace, DA, S to King which got ruffed , CK and then hearts split 4-1 as well so I was down two for a bottom, most pairs in 6S= (probably by discarding a club and two hearts on the diamonds then taking the working heart finesse).

Partner was North and was adamant that his 5H is the correct call - "4-4 fits play better than 5-3 and the singleton DA is a miracle". I'd have bid a simple 3S "to save space". We were both tired and under time pressure :/

Any thoughts on the correct bidding sequence here? My attempt would be ...3S-4D (cue)-4NT-5D(0 or 3)-5H(Q ask)-6S (yes but no K). Perhaps this isn't ideal as it ignores the heart fit?

ahydra

edit: ARGH sorry forgot to put system. Acol with 3 weak twos and a weak no trump!

[kenrexford]

North has unique information and ideally should take some control. But, there is time, assuming 2/1 GF.

My sequence would be:

1♠-2♦
2♥-3♥(I agree that focusing hearts seems right)
3♠(two of the top three spades)-4♣(non-serious, club control)
4♦(last train)-4♥(not enough)
4NT(immediate answer 3 keys)-5♣(trump Queen?)
6♥(yes)-6♠

Something like that. The key is the 3♠ cue; Responder should correct after that.

[aguahombre]

As North I would accidentally end up in 6S through a series of misunderstandings.

First, I would never believe South really had a heart suit; there is no reason to jump to 3H as a natural call after 2/1 G.F. So, I would be laboring under the (false) impression that South had splintered for diamonds.

Easy game (slam)

[MrAce]

South : 3♥ is something i dont understand, why not 2♥ even if u dont play this 3♥ as splinter conforming ♦ fit like most people.

North : Whats the purpose of 5♥ ? What is he asking ? Trump honors ? ♣ Control ? There are much easier ways to learn ♣ stopper (control cues but he has it in his hand anyway) or easier ways to learn ♥ honors (such as RKCB, works great especially when u dont have a void)

[TWO4BRIDGE]

It's hard to top Ken's cuebid methods, namely the 3S! = 2 of top 3 Sp .
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I've been toying with another idea.
We had a similar problem recently ( a non-slam hand ) involving a double-fit in Sp/Hts .
1m - 1S
1NT - 2om! ( NMF )
3H!jump = max, 3s/4h ( an suggestion by Lorne Russell ).
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

An unnecessary 3S!-jump could be used here to carry additional information, since 2S is all that is needed to show support in the GF auction
South.... North
1S - 2D! ( 2/1 GF )
2H - 3S!jump = 3s/4h double-fit

[xcurt]

North is definitely wrong in his/her belief that hearts is a better strain than spades here.

* Jxxx is not a good holding
* there are slow diamond tricks in the north hand, so the ability to get an extra trump trick in the 4-4 is not so relevant here

Edit -- I'm referring to North's perspective during the auction. Of course, spades is better after you see dummy as well.

[aguahombre]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-November-03, 20:25, said:

An unnecessary 3S!-jump could be used here to carry additional information, since 2S is all that is needed to show support in the GF auction
South.... North
1S - 2D! ( 2/1 GF )
2H - 3S!jump = 3s/4h double-fit

I know you said you were just toying with the ideas, but consider how long you might wait to have 3-4-4+ in the 3 suits, as opposed to all the hands where you hold, e.g., KJXX AX AKQXX XX and want to demand cuebidding with the 3S jump and take over.

[MickyB]

I assume 1S:2D, 2H would have been NF. In "modern Acol" this is forcing, you basically never see this played as NF in tournament bridge. This is somewhat uncomfortable when you have a 1354 decent 9-count but it's fine otherwise. Agree with playing the 4-4 being wrong here, you have a clue that there may be issues in the heart suit and that you may have pitches for them if you play in another strain, it doesn't need opener to have the stiff AD for that to be true.

[han]

Having to bid 3H is terrible, I can't believe people still play this.

[gnasher]

han, on 2011-November-04, 03:04, said:

Having to bid 3H is terrible, I can't believe people still play this.

Wanting to bid 3♥ is even worse.

[Zelandakh]

I like the style of Acol whre 3H promises 5-5 and you can go slow with this type of hand. Even after 3H Reese's rule ought to apply to North here (Don't bid bad suits in slam auctions) and surely 3S is better opposite the known 5 card spade suit (even playing 4cMs) holding Jxxx support for the second suit. Even if North is convinced that setting hearts is the most important thing then they could bid 4C rather than 5H. In truth I think pretty much any bid is better than 5H here.

As for how to bid it, opposite myself I would probably try:-
1C = 15+ nat/bal or 18+ any
... - 2D = bal or 3-suited, 4-5 hearts and 0-3 spades, GF
2H = relay, usually 18+
... - 3C = bal, 4 diamonds
3D = relay
... - 4D = 3442, extras with 4 controls
4H = relay
... - 4S = no heart control
4N = relay
... - 5S = controls in diamonds, spades and clubs, no HQ
6S

[whereagles]

1S 2D
2H 3H

seems like a good start. Then it should be easy to find the grand. A jump to 3H 2nd round seems premature. This is the sort of hand where you need to exchange info at a low level.

[whereagles]

han, on 2011-November-04, 03:04, said:

Having to bid 3H is terrible, I can't believe people still play this.

There are good reasons to jump-shift on a max (~18-21 H) and 5-4. But this is not the sort of hand to do that.

[daveharty]

whereagles, on 2011-November-04, 06:11, said:

1S 2D
2H 3H

seems like a good start. Then it should be easy to find the grand.

Agree with the start of your auction, but I don't think I'd want to be in grand even if I could bid looking at both hands.

[whereagles]

Oh I saw something wrong; thought 13 tricks were cold.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

aguahombre, on 2011-November-03, 21:06, said:

I know you said you were just toying with the ideas, but consider how long you might wait to have 3-4-4+ in the 3 suits, as opposed to all the hands where you hold, e.g., KJXX AX AKQXX XX and want to demand cuebidding with the 3S jump and take over.

I know some here by-pass an immediate GF raise w/4 cards ( like Jacoby2NT ) in favor of a 2/1 source-of-tricks ( as in your example )... but I'm not one of them.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

whereagles, on 2011-November-04, 06:11, said:

1S 2D
2H 3H

seems like a good start. Then it should be easy to find the grand.

The grand is out of the question since you are off 1 key card which could be the ♥Ace ( assuming North took control ).

[Cyberyeti]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-November-04, 07:12, said:

The grand is out of the question since you are off 1 key card which could be the ♥Ace ( assuming North took control ).

Not if you ask in spades it can't, but agree you don't want to be in it.

You're a bit unlucky to get the breaks you did, you might well have made 6♥ and been unaware anything had gone awry till afterwards, but 6♠ is clearly better.

I really dislike the 3♥ bid.

We play 2♥ F1 in an Acol context (with the 2/1 requiring a hand happy to play in game opposite 15). We also use a 2N rebid as GF not necessarily balanced hand with the corollary that 1♠-2m-3♥ is 2 good 5 card suits but not a huge hand. This treatment is unorthodox, but works pretty well.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-November-03, 20:25, said:

An unnecessary 3S!-jump could be used here to carry additional information, since 2S is all that is needed to show support in the GF auction
South.... North
1S - 2D! ( 2/1 GF )
2H - 3S!jump = 3s/4h double-fit

Continuing from my post #5 after 3S!jump by North:
4D ( Diam Ctrl, no Cl Ctrl) - 4NT ( 6 Ace-RKC, including sQ but not hQ; lower rank hQ can be found later )
5C ( 0/3 ) - 5D ( sQ-ask )
??
...5H ( sQ + hQ, since hK would be in key card reply )
...5S ( no sQ )
...5NT ( sQ , but no outside K or hQ )
...6C ( sQ + cK, but no hQ )
...6D ( sK + dK, but no cK or hQ )

After the 5H reply:
5H - 6S ( at least we find out about the hQ [ as well as sQ ] ; would have passed the 5S reply [ no sQ ] but the final contract could be in peril after a 5NT reply ).

[pooltuna]

would your bidding have been significantly different if you had swapped either the ♦K or the ♠K for the 3♥. Personally I think this is awfully close to resulting. Stuff happens live with it!