[Yu18772]

Hi
I have a fairly simple question, that stirred some discussion at the table today. Assuming that the auction
1NT-2♥(transfer)-2♠-4NT
is quantitative, and 1NT-2♥(transfer)-2♠-3m
is at least game forcing

What does 1NT-2♥(transfer)-2♠-5NT mean for you?

[gwnn]

pick between 6M and 6NT.

[Free]

Pick a slam, opener may even bid 6m or 6♥ with a 5 card suit.

[awm]

Free, on 2011-October-23, 11:22, said:

Pick a slam, opener may even bid 6m or 6♥ with a 5 card suit.

I agree. I'll add that this normally shows 5(332) shape (otherwise would bid the second suit at the three-level). Also, it can occasionally be a try for a grand slam if there is a suit fit, in which case opener's suit choice might get raised, or opener's slam choice might get corrected to 6NT.

[Phil]

gwnn, on 2011-October-23, 02:04, said:

pick between 6M and 6NT.

I think this is standard but I have a partner that plays 5N is PAS with a 25(42).

1N - 2♦ - 2♥ - 6♥ is choose between 6♥ and 6N.

[JLOGIC]

That is a pretty terrible agreement since 5332 would almost always be interested in playing 6 of a minor in a 5-3 or 6-3 fit with a ruffing value, and a suit to ruff out. Tough to get there 2D-2H-6H. However with 5422, you can just show your first suit, then show your second suit, in a forcing manner.

[gszes]

imo it is gsf for spades
used by a hand with say

QJTxxxx
AK
void
AKQJ

[Yu18772]

I dont understand a few things, and all of you are better players than I am so please explain -
1. If I know that we belong in 6, and I have a balanced hand and just basically want to know if partner has a fit for my 5 card suit, why cant I bid 3m get a response that wil show wether he has a fit and bid 6S or 6NT accordingly? May be even check aces in the process?
2. What do I do with hand that are quantitative for 6 or 7 (1NT-5NT) and have 5 spades?
thanks

[Yu18772]

gszes, on 2011-October-23, 14:00, said:

imo it is gsf for spades
used by a hand with say

QJTxxxx
AK
void
AKQJ

I would bid 1NT-2♥-2♠-5♦ (exclusion) with this type of hand, or 1NT-4♥-4♠-5♠ (if agreed that it asks for trump quality, and exclusion is not available)

[aguahombre]

I checked the wrong one in the poll. I believe it is most commonly pick a slam. Those who are thinking about exclusion should consider that there are Jacoby AND Texas available.

Texas Can be used to lock in the major as trump and RKC or exclusion from there. Jacoby 2-level transfer followed by the below can be:

4N=quant with 5
5N=pick
5(suit)=some kind of self-answer to an imaginary RKC by opener (Meckwellish).

Jacoby, then some high level follow-up can alternatively describe a solid suit of various extreme lengths.

[FrancesHinden]

I know that 'pick a slam' is popular, but I don't see the point of it here.
I play this as the same as a direct raise to 5NT (1NT - 5NT) but with a 5-card spade suit i.e. I want to play in 6 or 7 but you can evaluate your hand knowing of long spades opposite.

If I wanted to decide whether to play in 6NT or 6S I would go much more slowly, because if I have a hand that is worth a force to a small slam, there are bound to be possible hands opposite where I want to play in grand, or in 6m, so I would investigate further.

[FrancesHinden]

Yu18772, on 2011-October-24, 00:23, said:

I dont understand a few things, and all of you are better players than I am so please explain -
1. If I know that we belong in 6, and I have a balanced hand and just basically want to know if partner has a fit for my 5 card suit, why cant I bid 3m get a response that wil show wether he has a fit and bid 6S or 6NT accordingly? May be even check aces in the process?
2. What do I do with hand that are quantitative for 6 or 7 (1NT-5NT) and have 5 spades?
thanks

I agree with you, but we seem to be in a minority. And you asked 'what does that auction mean for you?'

[Yu18772]

FrancesHinden, on 2011-October-24, 02:12, said:

I agree with you, but we seem to be in a minority. And you asked 'what does that auction mean for you?'

Can I please rephrase it to "what does it mean for you and why?"

[Free]

Yu18772, on 2011-October-24, 00:23, said:

I dont understand a few things, and all of you are better players than I am so please explain -
1. If I know that we belong in 6, and I have a balanced hand and just basically want to know if partner has a fit for my 5 card suit, why cant I bid 3m get a response that wil show wether he has a fit and bid 6S or 6NT accordingly? May be even check aces in the process?
2. What do I do with hand that are quantitative for 6 or 7 (1NT-5NT) and have 5 spades?
thanks

1. 3m shows a 4 card suit, partner may raise even with M fit depending on agreements. This will make the auction more complicated, it will give more info to opps,... Why do something difficult if you can do it in an easy way?

2. I play that 1NT-2♥-2♠-5♠ is quantitative with 5♠. With a 6 card ♠ we transfer at 4-level, after which 5♠ will be quantitative and 5NT will be grand slam try. I guess quantitative for grand with only 5♠s should be bid 1NT-2♥-2♠-6♠ (signoff in 6♠ also goes via 4-level transfer), but I haven't got any notes on that. Basically we use a simple meta-agreement: 2-level transfer followed by something higher than 4M shows exactly 5 card M, 4-level transfer followed by something high shows 6+M with trumps set.

[gnasher]

FrancesHinden, on 2011-October-24, 02:11, said:

I know that 'pick a slam' is popular, but I don't see the point of it here.
I play this as the same as a direct raise to 5NT (1NT - 5NT) but with a 5-card spade suit i.e. I want to play in 6 or 7 but you can evaluate your hand knowing of long spades opposite.

If I wanted to decide whether to play in 6NT or 6S I would go much more slowly, because if I have a hand that is worth a force to a small slam, there are bound to be possible hands opposite where I want to play in grand, or in 6m, so I would investigate further.

I would go much more slowly with either of these hand-types. Hence I think it doesn't really matter what meaning is assigned to 5NT - I'll never bid it anyway.

Of course, this assumes that there is some way to go more slowly. For me, that would be via 1NT-3M. If you don't play that as natural and don't have another way to make a forcing bid in a major, the meaning of 5NT becomes rather more important.

[lamford]

gnasher, on 2011-October-24, 03:22, said:

I would go much more slowly with either of these hand-types. Hence I think it doesn't really matter what meaning is assigned to 5NT - I'll never bid it anyway.

Of course, this assumes that there is some way to go more slowly. For me, that would be via 1NT-3M. If you don't play that as natural and don't have another way to make a forcing bid in a major, the meaning of 5NT becomes rather more important.

I presume you would never therefore bid 1NT-5NT, meaning bid 6 or 7. I think you are in a minority in playing 1NT-3M as natural, with fragments and splinters being a common treatment among a few CCs I surveyed. I think Frances' method seems the most useful - certainly if you would not be using 5NT anyway!

[Zelandakh]

We had this come up a few months ago. I think it is simplest to play this as invitational to 7 and going via Texas to show the choose a slam type.

[pooltuna]

Well if 1NT-4♥-4♠-5NT is josephine I would guess quantitative with 5♠

[Yu18772]

Thank you ! This discussion is very educational for me so far

[gnasher]

lamford, on 2011-October-24, 03:47, said:

I presume you would never therefore bid 1NT-5NT, meaning bid 6 or 7.

Never say never, but certainly I'd normally investigate the possibility of playing in a trump suit.

Quote

I think you are in a minority in playing 1NT-3M as natural, with fragments and splinters being a common treatment among a few CCs I surveyed. I think Frances' method seems the most useful - certainly if you would not be using 5NT anyway!

I don't see why you think that.

If (like Frances and me) you have a slower way to bid with a 5332, you should do that either with a 5332 choice-of-slams or with a 5332 grand-slam try.

If you don't have a a slower way to bid with a 5332, both hand-types are a problem. The 5332 choice-of-slams is rather more frequent than the 5332 grand-slam try, so given the (dreadful) constraints I would play 1NT-2♥;2♠-5NT as a choice of slams, and do something even less satisfactory with the other hand-type.