[32519]

Can the experts kindly advise on the best methods to show the 4441 hand pattern. Holding 11-16 HCP, 2/1 and SAYC players are often taught to open the bidding with the lowest minor. With 17+ HCP, the hand pattern gets moved into the 2♦ (Multi) opening bid. With 11-15 HCP, Precision players open the bidding with 1♦. With 16+ HCP I see many of them also opening with 2♦ now, Multi style, irrespective of where the singleton is. Opening 1♣ with 16+ HCP and a 4441 hand pattern distorts the continuation bidding. ACOL players are taught to open the bidding with the middle suit, followed by the higher ranking suit and then the lowest ranking suit. The problem with this approach is, you need three bids to describe your hand and by then you are often already on level 3.
1.) What do the experts use to bid the 4441 hand pattern?
2.) What does your continuation bidding structure look like?

Thanking you in advance for your assisstance.

[awm]

Playing a version of standard american, I'd open 1♦ if I have four diamonds (else 1♣). If partner bids my short suit, I will rebid 1M if I can. If the auction starts 1♦-1♠ and I have 1444:

(1) Rebid 1NT with 11-14 hcp. This enables us to find a heart fit, and reaches a better partial on many auctions.
(2) Rebid 2♣ with 15-16 hcp.
(3) Usually rebid 2♥ with 17+ hcp.
(4) Occasionally rebid 2NT with 17-19 hcp and a stiff spade honor or weak diamonds.

The advantage of opening 1♦ is that I can rebid 2♣ without reversing; this comes in useful in competitive auctions even on hands where I'd rebid 1NT with opponents silent.

I don't play multi, and if I did three-suited 17-counts would not be high on my list of hands for strong options. I'd also tend not to open 2♣ on borderline hands with this type of shape, since patterning out is never going to happen. I know some people like to open 1NT/2NT with singletons when in range; generally I have gotten poor results from such things and almost never do it (although I will rebid notrump with singleton in partner's suit fairly freely, I see this as a different situation for many reasons).

[Vampyr]

My regular partner and I play 5-card majors, with one exception -- with 4=4=4=1 in our NT range we open 1♥. Opening 1♦ creates a lot of problem auctions.

[rhm]

awm, on 2011-October-21, 00:19, said:

Playing a version of standard american, I'd open 1♦ if I have four diamonds (else 1♣). If partner bids my short suit, I will rebid 1M if I can. If the auction starts 1♦-1♠ and I have 1444:

(1) Rebid 1NT with 11-14 hcp. This enables us to find a heart fit, and reaches a better partial on many auctions.
(2) Rebid 2♣ with 15-16 hcp.
(3) Usually rebid 2♥ with 17+ hcp.
(4) Occasionally rebid 2NT with 17-19 hcp and a stiff spade honor or weak diamonds.

The advantage of opening 1♦ is that I can rebid 2♣ without reversing; this comes in useful in competitive auctions even on hands where I'd rebid 1NT with opponents silent.

I don't play multi, and if I did three-suited 17-counts would not be high on my list of hands for strong options. I'd also tend not to open 2♣ on borderline hands with this type of shape, since patterning out is never going to happen. I know some people like to open 1NT/2NT with singletons when in range; generally I have gotten poor results from such things and almost never do it (although I will rebid notrump with singleton in partner's suit fairly freely, I see this as a different situation for many reasons).

Good advice.
I play the same when playing standard.
The real problem is when to open 2♣ with 4441.
Fortunately that problem does not happen too often.

Rainer Herrmann

[Zelandakh]

Playing Acol I usually open the minor of opposite colour to the singleton, although I sometimes will also open 1D with a singleton heart. This requires the special agreement that the sequence 1D - 2C - 2D does not show extra length and is forcing. More traditional in Acol is to open 4=4=4=1 hands 1H, creating an exception to the rule that opening 1M and rebidding a new suit promises a 5 card major.

Playing strong club I open 1D on all 4441s up to 17 hcps with 4 diamonds and 1NT on 12-14 hands with a singleton diamond. Other hands (15-17 with singleton diamond and all 18+) open 1C. The 18+ hands have specialised sequences devoted to them along the lines of a Roman 2D opening where Responder is weakish or just relay when Responder is stronger. Over a 1D opening, if Responder is weak then 4 card suits are bid up the line (with 1NT representing hearts) or if Responder is invitational or better then relays are used. An awkward hand for this system is a minimum 4=4=4=1 opener opposite a weak 3=3=2=5. Other 4441 patterns and strengths are not a problem.

[dake50]

Play 4cM in a Majors-Always-First,MAF style
was designed just for this problem.
Find your 4-3+ Major fit quickly.
Assure 4-4 Major fit before 4M; or at least
assure single must be trump controlled (weak/no stop).

[gszes]

When your short suit is NOT SPADES your are generally ok
opening 1c (unless that is your short suit). You will
normally not risk "losing" the minors and your hand will
improve if p can bid 1d over your 1c and if it goes 1c 1n
you can safely rebid 2c (opps have 9 cards in a red suit).
I will open 1d IF the dia suit has at least twice the
power of the club suit and is headed by at least the K.


When your short suit is SPADES you need to think about
rebids because our exploration space is almost gone.

With STIFF (A/K/Q) SPADE and a minimum I open my better minor
and if p bids:

1d bid 1h
1h bid 2/3 h
1s bid 1n
1n bid 2c

With (J or X) SPADE


With a minimum and two decent minors open 1d and rebid 2c
because I do not want to encourage a 2s rebid and with
decent suits its hard for opps to x for penalty
ie x Kxxx AJTx KQJx.

With 14+ to 16- I open better minor and rebid 1n) down playing
the extra power since a misfit is looming.

With 16 or more I open prefer to open 1c and rebid
2D BUT both minor suits should be decent (if not consider
a 1n or 2h rebid) ie x AKQJ Kxxx Kxxx is not good enough
for 1c followed by 2d --- this hand I would open 1c and lie
a tad planning on 2h reverse.

With 17+ I open better minor and plan to reverse to 2h.

[Fluffy]

the notion of rebidding 1NT with singleton in partner's major makes me vomit, so I would rebid 2♣ after opening 1♦ even with 11 HCP.

[xxhong]

I almost always open 1D when I have D. Rebid 1NT with 12- bad 14 if partner bids my singleton in H or S. With good 14-16, I usually open 1NT if I have a stiff honor. With 17-18, I just open 1D and rebid 2NT if partner bids my singleton. The worst situation is when I have good 14-16 and no stiff honor in that singleton suit. Here, depends on the suit quality, I'll treat one of the 4 card suit as a 5 card suit and bid show 5-4 shapes.
For example, x AKJx AQxx xxxx, this looks like a 1H opening to me and I bid D later. Axxx x AQxx Axxx, I just open 1D and rebid 1S over 1H to treat it as 4-5. AJxx x Axxx AJxx, this one I just open 1D and rebid 1NT to downgrade it for one point. x AJxx AJxx AJxx, this one is tough, I would probably just open 1D and rebid 2C over 1S. Here, I may easily play a 4-2 2D. But 1H opening may often lead to a bad 4-2 2H fit as well. 1NT may miss a lot of games when partner holds good 10 to 11.

32519, on 2011-October-21, 00:08, said:

Can the experts kindly advise on the best methods to show the 4441 hand pattern. Holding 11-16 HCP, 2/1 and SAYC players are often taught to open the bidding with the lowest minor. With 17+ HCP, the hand pattern gets moved into the 2♦ (Multi) opening bid. With 11-15 HCP, Precision players open the bidding with 1♦. With 16+ HCP I see many of them also opening with 2♦ now, Multi style, irrespective of where the singleton is. Opening 1♣ with 16+ HCP and a 4441 hand pattern distorts the continuation bidding. ACOL players are taught to open the bidding with the middle suit, followed by the higher ranking suit and then the lowest ranking suit. The problem with this approach is, you need three bids to describe your hand and by then you are often already on level 3.
1.) What do the experts use to bid the 4441 hand pattern?
2.) What does your continuation bidding structure look like?

Thanking you in advance for your assisstance.

[Zelandakh]

awm, on 2011-October-21, 00:19, said:

If the auction starts 1♦-1♠ and I have 1444:

(3) Usually rebid 2♥ with 17+ hcp.

Just a quick question on this Adam. If you are going to reverse into hearts anyway is it not better to open 1C? I agree that it is usually best to open this shape 1D.

[aguahombre]

It would be nice if 11-14 and 23-25 were covered by something else, and thus eliminated from the mix when we open 1m or 2C.

The lack of precision following checkback methods after nt rebids, the worry about only having 8 cards in the two minors when rebidding 2c, and nebulous strength ranges after showing the pattern would all go away.

[ggwhiz]

Fluffy, on 2011-October-21, 09:36, said:

the notion of rebidding 1NT with singleton in partner's major makes me vomit, so I would rebid 2♣ after opening 1♦ even with 11 HCP.

Me too unless I have a singleton honour and my 4 card ♥ suit is poor quality.

We play 5 card majors but there is no such thing as "never" and that's our choice (with 4) if we can't stomach the 1nt or 2♣ rebid. Doesn't work out all that well but the mini-roman 2♦ is much worse.

ps. I pass with 11 and this severe rebid problem.

[aguahombre]

ggwhiz, on 2011-October-21, 13:49, said:

but the mini-roman 2♦ is much worse (for most people)

FYP. Lots of players do not like mini-Roman; and/or don't wish to give up a different use for 2D; and/or haven't developed a workable system of follow-ups. And, for them it is truly worse than the gains from getting that hand type out of other auctions.

[rhm]

Fluffy, on 2011-October-21, 09:36, said:

the notion of rebidding 1NT with singleton in partner's major makes me vomit, so I would rebid 2♣ after opening 1♦ even with 11 HCP.

and loose your heart fit ....
By the way you rebid 1NT only with a singleton ♠.
Over 1♠ 1NT is the cheapest rebid you can make. 1NT will often be a desirable contract, unreachable if you do not bid it now. It is well defined in strength and you have nice conventions like check-back or XYZ to find out what opener has.
This is all very different to a 2♣ rebid.

Rainer Herrmann

[Trinidad]

rhm, on 2011-October-21, 16:42, said:

Fluffy, on 2011-October-21, 09:36, said:

the notion of rebidding 1NT with singleton in partner's major makes me vomit, so I would rebid 2♣ after opening 1♦ even with 11 HCP.

and loose your heart fit ....

That's what Reverse Flannery is for...

Rik

[rhm]

Trinidad, on 2011-October-22, 00:56, said:

rhm, on 2011-October-21, 16:42, said:

Fluffy, on 2011-October-21, 09:36, said:

the notion of rebidding 1NT with singleton in partner's major makes me vomit, so I would rebid 2♣ after opening 1♦ even with 11 HCP.

and loose your heart fit ....

That's what Reverse Flannery is for...

Rik

Sure but, like any convention, at a cost.

Nobody has convincingly explained what is so terrible about rebidding 1NT with a singleton ♠ over 1NT when partner has bid 1♠ and is aware you might have a singleton. He will not take out 1NT into a mediocre 5 card ♠ suit; a dubious practice anyway.
If partner has not enough for game opposite a minimum opening, nobody to my knowledge has convincingly shown that 1NT is a bad spot under those circumstances. (when opener has a singleton in partner's ♠ suit)
My experience suggest otherwise, particularly at pairs. Opponents will not find the ♠ lead often when it would be to their advantage.

Assume opener does have a singleton ♠, why are you in a better position if you rebid 2♣ with 4-4 in the minors instead of 1NT?
(I admit I will rebid 1NT even with 1♠=3♥=5♦=4♣ and minimum strength.)
Over 2♣ partner does not know your exact strength, nor does he have the same room than over 1NT.
If partner has length in ♠ with conventions like XYZ or two way check-back it is easy to sign-off in ♠ or show invitational strength and still stop in 2♠ over 1NT.
Do the same over a rebid of 2♣.
The truth is that over a 2♣ rebid partner often has to guess what to do.
A 1NT rebid is a very precise and desirable rebid (yes even when you can have a singleton ♠), 2♣ is not (even though it is a more expensive rebid; higher bids should be more precise, not less).

The old fashioned method, which dates back longer than the invention of check-back Stayman or new minor forcing, is simply not thought out well any more.

Rainer Herrmann

[ggwhiz]

rhm, on 2011-October-22, 03:05, said:

Nobody has convincingly explained what is so terrible about rebidding 1NT with a singleton ♠ over 1NT when partner has bid 1♠ and is aware you might have a singleton.

Yes you must lose somewhere to gain elsewhere but when I respond 1♠ on QJTxx and dubious (or no) side entries I have a comfort level in removing 1nt to 2♠ that has served me well, especially at MP's.

Passing 1nt if pard MIGHT have a stiff is a flip of the coin. If you guess right, probably get to many of the same contracts with the other suggested methods.

[whereagles]

I've been having considerable sucess handling 4441s as

- a balanced hand if the singleton is A/K/Q
- if not, pretend the best minor is 5 cards

and act accordingly. I've had one bidding disaster the last 5 years (we got to 6D on a 4-3 fit lol), but that was it.

[fromageGB]

Fluffy, on 2011-October-21, 09:36, said:

the notion of rebidding 1NT with singleton in partner's major makes me vomit ...

Unless it is part of the system!

Of course this is not SAYC, but worth mentioning is to alter the minor openings so that you open 1♣ on all balanced or semi-balanced hands, and 1♦ only on a 6 card suit, or a hand with a singleton or void outside diamonds. Then the hand is either (a) 6 diamonds, or (b) 10+ cards in minors, or © 3 suited. When partner responds a major, you :
(a) rebid diamonds
(b) rebid clubs
(c1) raise partner if you are not short in that major, or
(c2) bid 1NT if 3 suited and singleton/void in that major.

This "systemic" rebid of 1NT when short in partner's suit has great advantages. He can bid any different suit to play, and it is good playing in 2♣ making, when others need that for checkback or something. (You use a rebid of the same major as a strength inquiry, as that cannot be a natural bid with possibly a void opposite.)

[fromageGB]

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This post has been edited by fromageGB: 2011-October-24, 09:40