[Cascade]

I am interested in how responder shows a splinter after a Jacoby 2NT response.

I am assuming a scheme like:

Direct Splinter is limited 10-12 or 9-11 the exact range doesn't matter.

Stronger Splinters then can go through Jacoby 2NT.

Does responder have a specific means of showing a shortage or do you just cue-bid your singletons after opener's rebid?

I am particular interested in what would be considered standard practice.

Here are some auctions:

1♠ 2NT
3♣ ? can responder show a singleton

1♠ 2NT
3♠ ? can responder show a singleton

1♠ 2NT
3NT ? can responder show a singleton

1♠ 2NT
4♠ ? can responder show a singleton

TIA

[nilbes]

hi,

J2nt is one of my favorite systems:showing a 4 card support and opening hand with any distribution. Here i think some modification is needed : I dont bid J2nt with a 4-5-2-2, or 4-5-3-1 hand. I bid my 5 card suit and become the captain of the bidding whereas with J2nt declerar is always the captain, why hide a 5 card suit so when I bid J2nt myhand will always mostly be a balanced 4-4-3-2 or 4-4-4-1 hand and if the opening bid is 1H then with the last mentioned hand I will bid 1S(may not want to loose a 4-4 S fit) (only and only if my 5 card suit is so poor mentioning then I use 2nt instead)

The 3C response is 14+ with singleton or 17+ balanced hand in my system so my bid would be a 3D asking bid

3S response is 11-13 opening hand with a singleton so with 3nt I ask for my partner's singleton

3nt is a 6 card suit with no singleton now any bid from me is a singleton in my hand

4S respond is the lousiest hand possible so if I go on bidding it must be a hand interested for slam even with the worst opening hand if I bid it would be a singleton.

I would like to hear ur views on this subject and widen my knowledge but also i think if you use j2nt u should also use 2/1 so ur 2level bid would be GF

[Chamaco]

Cascade, on Oct 7 2004, 04:57 AM, said:

I am interested in how responder shows a splinter after a Jacoby 2NT response.



TIA

As far as I know,
the main poin of J2Nt is that responder takes control, and becomes the captain of th auction: responder will not describe his hand, but opener will describe.

So, a responder too strong for a splinter will not describe his hand to show the singleton, he should not be bothered to find a way to show it.

Opener should be the one describing, and responder will place the contract.

[whereagles]

Jacoby 2NT, played in the usual way, has two problems:

1. Frequency is very rare, e.g. you almost never use it.
2. It is designed to let responder take control. This is WRONG because opener is unlimited.

While you can't do much about 1 (except by playing 4-card majors, I guess) there's something you can do about 2: change its structure completely. There are a lot of alternative schemes on the market, but the one I like best is Martel's. I'll post it here if you're interested.

[cherdano]

whereagles, on Oct 7 2004, 09:25 AM, said:

There are a lot of alternative schemes on the market, but the one I like best is Martel's. I'll post it here if you're interested.

Please, go wild

[luke warm]

i prefer the oldie but still goodie

1H : 2NT or 1S : 2NT = 4+ card support, balanced hand, 16+ HCP

1H : 3S or 1S : 3NT = Over jump shift, splinter with 4+ card support, 12-15 HC points - Opener bids cheapest step to ask.

1H : 3D or 1S : 3H = Under jump shift, splinter with 4+ card support, 9-11 HC points (cheapest bid by Opener asks for location). Game force.

1H : 3H or 1S : 3S = 3 over 1 raise – 4+ card support, 0-6 HC points

1H : 4H or 1S : 4S = 4 over 1 raise – 5+ card support, 0-7 HC points

1H : 3C = 4+ card support, balanced, 7-11 HC points (3D by opener asks if constructive or limit. If limit, any bid other than 3H shows control. 3NT is diamond control.)

1S : 3D = 4+ card support, balanced, 7-11 HC points (3H by opener asks if constructive or limit. If limit, any bid other than 3S shows control. 3NT is heart control.)

1H : 4C = 4+ card support, balanced hand, 12-15 HCP, shows 2 of the top 3 honors if 4 cards (shows Ace or King if 5 cards.)

1H : 4D = Same as above but without the trump honors.

[Chamaco]

whereagles, on Oct 7 2004, 09:25 AM, said:

Jacoby 2NT, played in the usual way, has two problems:

1. Frequency is very rare, e.g. you almost never use it.
2. It is designed to let responder take control. This is WRONG because opener is unlimited.

While you can't do much about 1 (except by playing 4-card majors, I guess) there's something you can do about 2: change its structure completely. There are a lot of alternative schemes on the market, but the one I like best is Martel's. I'll post it here if you're interested.

That is right.

Among the various approaches, one is described by Max Hardy in his books "The problem of major suit raises" and "Adv bidding for the 21st century".

It put strong emphasis on not overloading J2NT, and have a pecise definition of splinter ranges. Minimum forcing balanced 4 cd raises use "Inverted Trump Swiss" (4c and 4d).

1M:?

bad 3 cd raise = 2M
inv 3 cd raise (or 4 cd low ODR) = 1Nt forcing + jump raise
forcing 3 cd raise = 2/1 then raise

bad 4 cd raise = 3M
inv 4 cd raise (or 3 cd with high ODR) = 3c
12/13-15 balanced 4 cd raise = 4c (with good trumps) or 4d (bad trumps)
16+ balanced 4 cd raise= Jacoby 2NT
12-14 concealed splinter = "under jump shift" (3d for hearts, 3H for spades)
15+ concealed plinter = "over jump shift" (3S for H, 3Nt for spades)

[nilbes]

whereagles, on Oct 7 2004, 04:25 AM, said:

There are a lot of alternative schemes on the market, but the one I like best is Martel's. I'll post it here if you're interested.

I would be rather interested if it's not too much a bother for you

TY

[inquiry]

Well, throw Jacoby 2NT out immediately. Wayne got it right, it occurs to rarely, it makes responder "captain" on some hands where he is barely able to force to game and has no clue to what overall stregth opener has.

What I like is something that ETM Victory calls JACOBY 2NT PLUS.. this is a misnomer, the 2NT bid is a very european Limit Raise or BETTER.... of openers major. The top end is unlimited. It sets trumps right away, so openers first step is to define his game interest opposite a limit raise (the minimum responder can have, and by far and away the most frequent hand). With no game interest, opener rebids 3♣. This will lead to end of auction very quickly.... Responder can bid 3M to sign off iwth limit raise, or can bid 4M with sufficient values to force to game, but not enough to overcome a hand where opener is willing to stop short of game opposite a limit raise. These are the most frequent auctions, no one knows nothing about either partenrs distribution.

Opener's 3♦ bid over 2NT is "waiting" but game forcing. Responder can bid 3♥ (doesn't matter what suit was opened) to show limit raise, and opener can bid 3♠ to ask for responder's short suit (if one is present), with 3NT = spades. Here you can have responder show his shortness after all (wayne's original question).

Over either 3♣ or 3♦ by opener, a new suit by responder (other than 3♦ is a splinter showing a hand TOO GOOD to splinter initially (again matching wayne's requirement)... and over 3♣, responder can bid 3♦ to ask opener to show his shortness (and clearly a slam try).

Since swicthing to Jacboy Plus 2NT, I have been bidding 2NT much, much more frequently, and with great success. To read more about this treatment, see..

http://www.bridgematters.com/jplus.htm

Ben

[whereagles]

I'm having computer problems right now, which prevent me to reach the file where I have it written down I'll post it as soon as I sort it out.

[Chamaco]

Since we are talking of "Jacoby Plus" (limit or better- sorry if the name not 100% correct, but easier to address ) , a little question.

Assuming to play limited 1M opener (max 15).
How to discriminate opener's hand which are:

- minimum 2-suiters (at most a bad 12 hcp)
- non-minimum 2-suiters = 5/5 from a good 12 to 15 ?

The link I have found
http://www.pitbulls....acoby%202NT.htm
suggests that after 1M:2NT

a 4-level bid shows a minimum 2-suiter, whereas max 2-suiters would go via serious 3NT.
However, in limited opener, I believe it better to be able to show the feature when max rather than using serious 3NT.

Comments ?

[inquiry]

With such a limited opener, having responder take control seems very useful to me. So I might suggest that you save 3♣ for the minimum hand...

You save 3♦ for minimum hand with two suiter, yet to be defined.

You use 3♥ as better than minimum, some short suit (3S = will ask, if responder is interested)

You use 3♠ as better than minimum, a second suit (clubs perhaps or other major or spades, you decide... ).

You use 4♣ as two suiter with some second suit (diamond perhpas if 3S showed clubs...)

You use 4♦. well you know....

This leaves you with 3NT to show better than minimum, balanced type hand.

Now this is off the top of my head, so probably needs loads of refinement....

Ben

[whereagles]

Well, I couldn't get my notes file, but here is where I first saw Martel's J2NT approach.

In a nutshell, here's what I can remember:

1M 2NT = game forcing raise, usually balanced, may ocasionally have a singleton
3C = all mins, no slam interest (SI). Resp normally bids 4M now, giving little away
3D = SI, no singleton
3H/S/NT = SI, singleton in HEL (highest suit, middle suit, lowest suit)
4m = SI, 55 shape

Sequences:

1M 2NT
3C 3D = SI, asks
3H = any singleton. 3S asks, opener shows sing in HEL
3S = 6322
3NT = 5332
4m = 5422

1M 2NT
3C 3H = SI opposite a good min and sing. Opener shows sing in HEL or bids 4M no sing

1M 2NT
3D 3H = asks
3S = 6322
3NT = 5332
4m = 5422 (with 4H if opening 1H = exactly 4-5-2-2)

Action follows up with frivolous 3NT, cuebids and RKCB, and elsewhere natural. Check the webpage I mentioned for competitive situations.

MY COMMENTS:

1. The structure is very nice. It manages to dig up two types of slam that are hard to bid without 33hcp: the "short-suit slam", e.g. those with x opposite xxx(x), and the "double-fit slam", which you play in a 44 side suit, using the main suit for discards.

2. Still has the classical J2NT problem of relinquishing control to responder, who usually couldn't care less for it, but at least it describes opener's hand very precisely, making it much, much better than the classical approach.

3. This is the big problem: J2NT happens like once every 1000 hands. Is it really worth all the trouble to memorize all the stuff, just to use it once every 3 months?

I don't know, BUT... if one starts to drag down requirements for 1M-2NT, for instance by putting invitational hands into J2NT, or by allowing it to be made on hands with 3-card support, you'll definitely bid it more, but you'll also need to overload the structure, which can barely cope with more steps.

For these reasons I think some rethinking has to be done about J2NT. It is a convention that works marvelously in Precision because you can bid it on whatever you want, making it much more flexible a tool. Besides, in Precision responder is always in charge: the steps can be used by opener to show what he has, rather than start asking questions.

HOWEVER, in a natural system, a more sensible J2NT approach would be to give opener the chance to seize control, e.g. similar to Martel's scheme, but with a twist: taking advantage of the fact that, in a natural system, it is RESPONDER'S hand that is more limited than opener's

1M 2NT
3C = no SI. Pls bid 4M unless you're really strong.
3O = SI. Show me what you got.

That's it, no more steps! Then start from here...

[Cascade]

Thanks for the replies.

I was more interested in what was "Standard Jacoby" rather than what improvements could be made.

I have played various schemes that are non-standard for a number of years. Mostly these have been based on 1♠ 2NT and 1♥ 2♠ showing an invitational or better hand. And I am quite happy with my current method.

I gather that responder has control after Jacoby so normally cue-bids and gathers information rather than showing his singleton explicitly.

Thanks again

[lowerline]

Here's a scheme I like (example after 1♥ opening)

2nt = 8+ 4crd supp
3♠ = 7-10 any void
3nt = 10-13 single ♠
4♣/♦ = 10-13 single

after 2nt:
3♣ = any other hand (see below)
3♦ = SI any splinter -> 3♥ asks -> 3♠ any void, 3nt/4m single
3♥ = min 5332
3♠ = SI 4crd
3nt = 18-19 5332
4♣/♦ = SI 4crd
4♥ = min 6crd

after 2nt-3♣:
3♦ = any splinter -> 3♥ asks -> 3♠ 11+ any void, 3nt/4m 14+ single
3♥ = min limit
3♠ = 12+-15- cue
3nt = 15-17 balanced
4♣/♦ = 12+-15- cue
4♥ = max limit

Pro:
- you can throw out Bergen Raises
- frequency of use
- doesn't tell opps anything about splinters unless one hand shows SI

Con:
- opps can intervene with 3m (but you can restore the sequence)
(3c) - p = meant to bid 3c
(3d) - p = meant to bid 3c -> dbl by partner = meant to bid 3d
(3d) - dbl = meant to bid 3d

Steven