[whereagles]

Hi, question for ppl with Sayc experience. Are these forcing?

1.
1C 1S
2C 3S

2.
1D 1S
2C 3S

And what are these?

3.
1D 1S
2C 3H

4.
1H 1S
2C 3D

Do the four sequences mean the same in 2/1?

Thx.

[inquiry]

First, for all things related to SAYC, see the official booklet from the ACBL at...

http://www.acbl.org/...y/sayc_book.pdf

About your four auctions...

I would play the jump rebid in auction 1 as forcing in SAYC...as they don't play new minor forcing.

I would play the jump rebid in auction 2 as invitational in SAYC, becuase they do play fourth suit forcing...

The jump in the new suits in the last two auctions are clearly forcing playing SAYC...

How do these differ? Playing 2/1 with nmf, I would play both of the first two auctions as invitational, non-forcing, while both of the second auctions as forcing and showing great shape for the two suits (if no spefic agreement are in place).

Ben

[Flame]

Cant say about sayc, but in my version of sayc.
1.
1C 1S
2C 3S
is inv 6 card since 2sp would have been weak, with GF you have to bid new suit, usually 2d.
2.
1D 1S
2C 3S
again same as 1, with GF you should use the 4th suit.
3.
1D 1S
2C 3H
since 2h is forcing, we use 3h to show inv 5-5.
4.
1H 1S
2C 3D
same as 3, 2d would be forcing so we use 3d for inv 5-5.
some thought :
About one and two it depend on what 2sp mean, its not ovious that 2sp should be weak, i know mecwell dont play it as weak in some similar situations, the idea is if partner already has a good club suit for his 2c then if we are weak maybe we can just pass. same logic could work if partner has already showed 5-4, we can settle for his suit . If we believe in that logic we can use 2sp to show something more then weak, maybe 8-10. This is especially true when you play limit opening with weak jump responses, because you can jump respose stronger then normal.

In both 3 and 4 you can use the jump as soemthing else, it should be a specific hand , which mean most hands still goes trough the forcing non jumps.
Other possibilities are splinter or 5-5 GF.

[helium]

1.no
2.no
3.yes
4.yes

kenneth

[Fluffy]

On the basic 5 card major I know without forcing 1NT they mean:

1. Invitational.
2. Invitational.
3. 5-5 at least game forcing.
4. 5-5 at least game forcing.


I´ve seen many pick up partners rebidding 3♠ on similar biddings to 1 and 2 with 15 HCP or so, often elading to a ridicoulous part score.

[Chamaco]

inquiry, on Oct 8 2004, 04:25 PM, said:

I would play the jump rebid in auction 2 as invitational in SAYC, becuase they do play fourth suit forcing...

Most critical, rather than 4th suit forcing use, is the use of Jumpshifts.

If strong jumpshifts are used, this auction is invitational; otherwise a point can be made to use it a a selfsufficient trump suit setting trumps on the way to a possible slam.

The use of 4th suit forcing with hands with a strong 1 suiter leads to trouble when you want to set the suit as trump and start looking for sidesuit controls, when strong JS do the job fairly well.

[whereagles]

Allright, suppose you play

1D 1S
2D 3S

as invitational. How would you bid this hand then? (Assume pard would NOT support spades with 3 cards.)

AQxxxx
Qx
xx
KQx

Pard we
1D 1S
2D ..??

[inquiry]

Chamaco, on Oct 10 2004, 09:44 AM, said:

inquiry, on Oct 8 2004, 04:25 PM, said:

I would play the jump rebid in auction 2 as invitational in SAYC, becuase they do play fourth suit forcing...

Most critical, rather than 4th suit forcing use, is the use of Jumpshifts.

If strong jumpshifts are used, this auction is invitational; otherwise a point can be made to use it a a selfsufficient trump suit setting trumps on the way to a possible slam.

The use of 4th suit forcing with hands with a strong 1 suiter leads to trouble when you want to set the suit as trump and start looking for sidesuit controls, when strong JS do the job fairly well.

Are you sure? I mean, in SAYC. the jumpshift is more than game force I think. I think it implies slam ambtion. And I am fairly sure even sayc uses fourth suit forcing. So that you separate between invitiational hands (jump rebid) from game forcing but somewhat uncertain to strain (fourth suit forcing), from very stong slam going hands with a good suit of your own (immediate jump shift).

But don't quote me.. I play SAYC only under extreme duress.

Ben

[Flame]

whereagles, on Oct 11 2004, 10:52 AM, said:

Allright, suppose you play

1D 1S
2D 3S

as invitational. How would you bid this hand then? (Assume pard would NOT support spades with 3 cards.)

AQxxxx
Qx
xx
KQx

Pard we
1D 1S
2D ..??

1D - 1S
2D -3C
??? -3S
this shows 6 card spade and GF.

[inquiry]

Flame, on Oct 11 2004, 02:41 PM, said:

whereagles, on Oct 11 2004, 10:52 AM, said:

Allright, suppose you play

1D 1S
2D 3S

as invitational. How would you bid this hand then? (Assume pard would NOT support spades with 3 cards.)

AQxxxx
Qx
xx
KQx

Pard we
1D 1S
2D ..??

1D - 1S
2D -3C
??? -3S
this shows 6 card spade and GF.

I pretty sure SAYC includes "fourth suit forcing", but makes no mention of nmf... this is how 2/1 would bid that hand however.

Ben

[whereagles]

Can't you bid it via

1D 1S
2D 2H
... 3S

The 3C takes away a lot of bidding space, so why not 2H instead?

[inquiry]

whereagles, on Oct 11 2004, 03:24 PM, said:

Can't you bid it via

1D 1S
2D 2H
... 3S

The 3C takes away a lot of bidding space, so why not 2H instead?

Because 2♥ is not only non-forcing in SAYC, it is not even encouraging. You will find yourself playing 2♥ on hands where you might well want to be somewhere else.

[inquiry]

So phil, which do you see as better option? No control in fourth suit or control in fourth suit? Should a void be allowed, or is not a void allowed? I am usually very opinionated, but here I am without strong conviction other than you should have a strict agreement as to what kind of hand to expect. I can live with control in fourth suit and not too TERRIBLE strong, choosing a slower auction with out such. You can use simple minor raise as being better hand, with splinter new suit bid after that if you don't meet the requirements (too strong for intial splinter).

Ben

[Cascade]

inquiry, on Oct 12 2004, 07:30 AM, said:

whereagles, on Oct 11 2004, 03:24 PM, said:

Can't you bid it via

1D 1S
2D 2H
... 3S

The 3C takes away a lot of bidding space, so why not 2H instead?

Because 2♥ is not only non-forcing in SAYC, it is not even encouraging. You will find yourself playing 2♥ on hands where you might well want to be somewhere else.

The SAYC notes that I have say this Ben:

"Second-round forcing bids. A new suit response (other than after a 1NT
rebid by opener) is a one-round force (but not forcing to game). If it
is a fourth suit in the auction, it may be artificial (4th suit
forcing, which is alertable)."

What is your source that a new suit is not forcing?

[inquiry]

Note my disclaimer... give above.. ."But don't quote me.. I play SAYC only under extreme duress."

:-)

[Chamaco]

inquiry, on Oct 11 2004, 04:10 PM, said:

Are  you sure? I mean, in SAYC. the jumpshift is more than game force I think. I think it implies slam ambtion. And I am fairly sure even sayc uses fourth suit forcing. So that you separate between invitiational hands (jump rebid) from game forcing but somewhat uncertain to strain (fourth suit forcing), from very stong slam going hands with a good suit of your own (immediate jump shift).

Ben, i meant exactly the same as you, probably my post esxplanation was a bit confusing, I hope to do a better job now.

4sf is does not promise slam ambition, at least at first.

SJS is for slam oriented hand and has the advantage of setting trumps, which improves hugely the slam exploration machine.

BUT: if you use weak jump shifts (or fitshowing, or any other jumpshift meaning different from SJS), then you will have trouble to set the trump suit (doing so with 4sf is REALLY awkward).

In that case, the jump rebid by responder could be a candidate to substitute the SJS setting trumps on the way to slam.