[gwnn]

I don't recall this being discussed before, at least not in a topic of its own.

How do you defend to

2♦*-p-p-?
*=weak 2 in a major

what if you think 3rd hand will only pass if he has 6 good diamonds?
what if you think 3rd hand will pass whenever he feels like passing (for example, with many 0-9 point hands, regardless of ♦ holding)
what if you want the same defence regardless of your opponents?

I guess it is also relevant to know how often 2♦ will be bid on a 5-card major, but let's just stick to this for now.

[paulg]

We play as if the passer had opened a weak two diamonds. May not be optimal, but it is simple.

[Fluffy]

takeour doubles nat 2NT, but perhaps playing 2NT 14-17 instead of the classic 16-19 makes sense, I think 3♦ as a stronger balanced hand will be by far more useful than as majors.

[dake50]

2D opener is the weakness pair. Let ambiguity loose.
Of course, unless game is possible with the weak2's Major.


I mean they (2D opener) don't need to be clear.
We competing against need clarity. So put well-defined
Overcalls in your scheme with a catchall strong amorphous bid.
I suggest 2H is strong amorphous. 2S is real S-invite or better.
2NT is M-stops. X is T/O for Spades as 2H includes 5+H-invites.
3m for strong suit source of tricks if you stop their Major.

[Free]

dake50, on 2011-October-14, 07:08, said:

2D opener is the weakness pair. Let ambiguity loose.
Of course, unless game is possible with the weak2's Major.

I don't understand what you're trying to say, are you suggesting to pass all the time??

[newchemist]

I suggest x = any balanced
2NT = both majors, 5/4 or better

and all other bids natural, point ranges to taste.

In my opinion the important thing when defending against a weak-only multi2D is to be able to overcall 2H naturally.
multi2D seems to lose when multi2D opener has a weak2 in spades and opps are allowed to overcall 2H while the rest of the field is shut out with 2S.

[Gerben42]

newchemist, on 2011-October-15, 07:40, said:

I suggest x = any balanced
2NT = both majors, 5/4 or better

and all other bids natural, point ranges to taste.

In my opinion the important thing when defending against a weak-only multi2D is to be able to overcall 2H naturally.
multi2D seems to lose when multi2D opener has a weak2 in spades and opps are allowed to overcall 2H while the rest of the field is shut out with 2S.

Sorry I disagree. You will wait forever to have both majors if opener has a 6-card major. Let's analyse who has what:

* opener: 6-card major
* responder: 6-card ♦ (usually)

So Dbl should T/O for ♣ + a major (or some strong hand). Partner should be prepared for the fact that you may not support his major. 2NT should be NATURAL. 3♣ of course natural, as is 2M. 3♦ should show a GOOD ♣ hand looking for 3NT, searching for stoppers (especially in ♦).

[dake50]

I suggest x = any balanced
2NT = both majors, 5/4 or better
and all other bids natural, point ranges to taste.
In my opinion the important thing when defending against a weak-only multi2D is to be able to overcall 2H naturally.
multi2D seems to lose when multi2D opener has a weak2 in spades and opps are allowed to overcall 2H while the rest of the field is shut out with 2S.

*** How often do you think 5/4 Majors
*** occurs after 2D as weak 2M?
*** Sure seems a wasted bid whatever the
*** rest of your suggested meanings have.
*** Back to my suggestion 2NT has M-stops.
*** 3 minor has source of tricks asks do you M-stop?
*** Dbl has other Major (he thinks).

[FrancesHinden]

We treat it approximately as weak 2D opening, but double is not necessarily short diamonds, more likely to be "a hand" as my partner likes to put it (i.e pretty much any weak NT-type balanced hand).

[newchemist]

Gerben42, on 2011-October-15, 07:46, said:

Sorry I disagree. You will wait forever to have both majors if opener has a 6-card major.

good point there.

[Free]

Gerben42, on 2011-October-15, 07:46, said:

Sorry I disagree. You will wait forever to have both majors if opener has a 6-card major. Let's analyse who has what:

* opener: 6-card major
* responder: 6-card ♦ (usually)

While I agree that 2NT as both majors is useless, I disagree that responder usually has a 6 card ♦. Obviously it depends on style, but the better the vulnerability, the fewer ♦ responder needs. For example, NV vs V, when responder has <6HCP he can pass with confidence on pretty much any possible distribution (even with 3-3M!). Going -8 undoubled is a top score compared to a vulnerable game. And why should he expose the Major suit and help opps anyway? When V vs NV on the other hand, you'll want to play your best fit whenever possible, because -5 is already a poor score. With equal vulnerability you can go -8 NV and -6 V.

Basically, when NV, you can pass any hand when you know opps have game. When V vs V it's usually ok (because most of the time you'll be able to take 2+ tricks somewhere). When V vs NV, you better have some ♦s.

As a defender, you should take that into account. Considering ♦ natural seems like a decent defense when opps are V. NV it's much more difficult imo.

[shevek]

More to the point is defending against a 2♥ weak-only Multi
where 2♥ = weak in a major.

Now (2♥) - no - (no) - ?

is quite threatening. There is no presumption that responder has hearts.
He might have spades & be playing poker.

If you double that in 4th seat and opener passes, don't assume he has hearts.

[gwnn]

You should assume he has hearts unless they are maniacs.

[Zelandakh]

Is it not normal to play double 2-way in that spot? It is not worth it for LHO to try a double-cross after this start so it will be clear to partner which hand type you have.

[gwnn]

Anyway, after

2♦-p-p-x, opener should probably pass with all hands, because responder may have a hand with diamonds after all. Maybe bid his major in case he has a very good suit and no love for diamonds. It can get slightly tricky to defend when it starts

2♦-p-p-x
p-???

Now responder might want to bid 2♥ all along (if that is pass/correct), but maybe he does have diamonds and will pass if you pass. My head is (still) spinning... Is this auction an argument against 2♥ multi and for 2♦ mini-multi?

[the hog]

gwnn, on 2011-October-16, 23:46, said:

You should assume he has hearts unless they are maniacs.

Not at all. When this convention was played by the Norwegians and the Italians, a pass of 2H nv vs vul and with not much in hand was not an infrequent occurence.

[gwnn]

the hog, on 2011-October-17, 04:39, said:

Not at all. When this convention was played by the Norwegians and the Italians, a pass of 2H nv vs vul and with not much in hand was not an infrequent occurence.

That's not what we were talking about (shevek was talking about and I replied).

we were talking about

2♥-p-p-x
p

I am sure there are some people who pass here holding spades, but they tend to be maniacs as the frequency of these passes tends to any significant %.