[the_dude]

---

5♣* was only down 1 with 650 cold. Both N/S could have acted differently .. what do you think?

[billw55]

Double is a unilateral action; south needs to be confident that it is right. While his defense is good, his six card suit argues for declaring, and also partner need not have the ♥A. I think south should consult partner by passing 5♣.

I guess I would give 50% south and 50% bad luck. Anyway north is certainly off the hook.

[Hanoi5]

I don't like 4♥ by North, 4♣ looks better.

[BunnyGo]

billw55, on 2011-October-04, 08:25, said:

Double is a unilateral action; south needs to be confident that it is right. While his defense is good, his six card suit argues for declaring, and also partner need not have the ♥A. I think south should consult partner by passing 5♣.

I guess I would give 50% south and 50% bad luck. Anyway north is certainly off the hook.

I disagree. It is not at all clear to me that this is a forcing pass situation. South is a simple overcall, and north could be simply preempting. If South passes, this may just pass out.

I am a little surprised that 5H makes but 5CX was only set 1, didn't north shift to a spade at trick 2? Were you not able to cash any hearts?

You definitely had some bad luck that the spade hook was onside this time, next time 620 is all that you'll make and so taking your +100 is best.

I agree that North should bid 4C.

[ArtK78]

North should bid 4♣. Now, when East bids 5♣, South can pass as it is a forcing pass situation. Given that South shows interest in bidding on, North should choose to bid 5♥.

Without the 4♣ bid, it is not a forcing pass situation. Further, South has no reason to believe that there is any chance of making 5♥. With two aces and additional cards, double doesn't seem like a bad choice (but if 5♣x made it would not be a shocking development).

I blame North entirely.

[Phil]

Minor charge to South for not bidding 5♥. If anyone suggests otherwise, then take away the ♠J in North and see if the auction proceeds any differently. Its that close. While we expect the spade finesse to work on the auction, the ♠J is definitely a bonus.

A few comments:

1. 4♥ is the right call I think. 4♣ shows a much better hand

2. Playing a forcing pass or 'consultative' here is crazy. We've made a simple one level overcall!

[aguahombre]

ArtK78, on 2011-October-04, 09:09, said:

North should bid 4♣. Now, when East bids 5♣, South can pass as it is a forcing pass situation. Given that South shows interest in bidding on, North should choose to bid 5♥.

Without the 4♣ bid, it is not a forcing pass situation. Further, South has no reason to believe that there is any chance of making 5♥. With two aces and additional cards, double doesn't seem like a bad choice (but if 5♣x made it would not be a shocking development).

I blame North entirely.

If North bid 4C, South should bid 5H. I seriously doubt North would do that after a forcing pass, since he doesn't really have extra offensive strength for his 4C bid ---in fact, a stretch to bid 4C at all.

I don't believe North's decision to bid 4H with that collection is subject to blame. Under pressure, he chose to show no defense and that is pretty close. I give 100% of blame to the ten of spades.

[billw55]

BunnyGo, on 2011-October-04, 08:41, said:

I disagree. It is not at all clear to me that this is a forcing pass situation. South is a simple overcall, and north could be simply preempting. If South passes, this may just pass out.

I did not say it was a forcing pass. I said south should consult partner. North could have no defense at all for his 4♥ call, and 5♣ making is not out of the question - which would be unfortunate if doubled.

Yes 4♣ is an alternative for north but I consider 4♥ also reasonable.

[BunnyGo]

billw55, on 2011-October-04, 11:37, said:

I did not say it was a forcing pass. I said south should consult partner. North could have no defense at all for his 4♥ call, and 5♣ making is not out of the question - which would be unfortunate if doubled.

Yes 4♣ is an alternative for north but I consider 4♥ also reasonable.

I don't see how passing here is "consulting" as South could just as easily have

Axx, KJxxxx, xx, xx

and simply want to pass out the hand (not consult with partner). South has to take the initiative at this point and either bid on or double (or pass, but not to consult...simply to pass it out).

[billw55]

BunnyGo, on 2011-October-04, 11:53, said:

I don't see how passing here is "consulting" as South could just as easily have

Axx, KJxxxx, xx, xx

and simply want to pass out the hand (not consult with partner). South has to take the initiative at this point and either bid on or double (or pass, but not to consult...simply to pass it out).

Ah ok I see what you are saying. South has extras, so south must act - but 5♥ may be too risky vul. So therefore double .. hm. I guess the question is, looking only at the south hand, how sure are we that 5♣ is down?

And when north holds the ♥A - should that encourage him to bid on or leave the double in? It will always play on offense and perhaps only usually on defense. In that sense, should north be pulling?

[Bbradley62]

BunnyGo, on 2011-October-04, 08:41, said:

You definitely had some bad luck that the spade hook was onside this time, next time 620 is all that you'll make and so taking your +100 is best.

Bad luck? E-W have 17HCP; East opened and West preempted. What do we think is the probability that the ♠K is on side?

[whereagles]

Does anyone want to play 5H without the J or T of spades in pard? I sure don't want. Next.

[jmcw]

North has chosen to bid 4♥, foregoing the possible cue 4♣ (my choice).
Regardless of North's action, I can see no convincing reason for N/S to bid on. Afterall, doesn't the 5 level belong to the ops.

I would pass 5♣(nf) at IMPs and X at MPs, so no blame to anyone.

[MrAce]

I would never bid 4♣ with North hand, it shows stronger hand. I would also not even consider bidding 5♥ by south with 6322 hand, that says who i think the blame should go i guess.

[mikestar13]

I have a different take on this--North should be bidding to make and forcing pass should apply. In my partnerships we have the old rule "never preempt over a preempt".

[aguahombre]

mikestar13, on 2011-October-05, 00:38, said:

I have a different take on this--North should be bidding to make and forcing pass should apply. In my partnerships we have the old rule "never preempt over a preempt".

You might well have that rule and apply it to this situation. But others use that time-worn phrase to describe initial action by a partnership, not to responses or advances of an opening or an overcall.

[phil_20686]

I dont see any blame here, just looks unlucky. With these cards there is no reason to beleive doubling 5C is not the best equity from either side. Sometimes when you have a double fit you concede swings. Since you have no chance to diagnose it I dont see any blame. From souths point of view north could have an extra club loser for 5H-1, from north's point of view south could have xxx KJ9xxx AQ Ax and now you need the diamond finesse to avoid 500.


Anyone who thinks south should be acting must do the same with the pointed suits reversed, when its 500 vs nothing. I strongly beleive that on this hand both players have made good decisions.

[neilkaz]

phil_20686, on 2011-October-05, 09:05, said:

I dont see any blame here, just looks unlucky. With these cards there is no reason to beleive doubling 5C is not the best equity from either side. Sometimes when you have a double fit you concede swings. Since you have no chance to diagnose it I dont see any blame. From souths point of view north could have an extra club loser for 5H-1, from north's point of view south could have xxx KJ9xxx AQ Ax and now you need the diamond finesse to avoid 500.


Anyone who thinks south should be acting must do the same with the pointed suits reversed, when its 500 vs nothing. I strongly beleive that on this hand both players have made good decisions.

That was my vote as well and for most of the reasons you mention.