[lowerline]

Hi,

When looking for info on the Kokish Rebids after 1♦-2♣, I always find a scheme like this:

1♦ - 2♣
2♦ = 11+ 5+crd ♦
2♥ = 4441
2♠ = GF 4crd ♣
2NT = 15-17 (when playing 12-14 NT opener)
3♣ = 4crd ♣
3♦ = GF 6crd
3♥/♠ = splinter
3NT = 18-19
(The 2♦ and 2NT rebid can still contain a 4crd ♥/♠)

It ends with a comment that it can also be played when playing a 15-17 NT opening.

There are some things I don't understand about this:
1. What do you do with a 3442 and 18-19hcp?
2. When playing a 15-17NT opening, the 2NT rebid becomes 12-14 and hence is not forcing. This seems very inconvenient.

Any thoughts?

Steven

[Flame]

Never heard if kokish but this problem bugged me too, last two times i held a nice 14 hcp i bid 3nt and was afraid partner would take it as 18-19.
2nt 12-14 is a problem.

[flytoox]

Mike Lawrence's 2/1 workbook has a page about KOkish 1D-2C. With balanced 18-19hcp, I think you bid 3N over 2c.

[lowerline]

I have no problem rebidding 3NT with 18-19 balanced as long as you don't have a 4crd major (3343). But what do you do when you do have a 4crd major and are 18-19 balanced (4432)?

Second problem: What does responder bid with a limit hand on a 12-14 2NT rebid?

Steven

[junyi_zhu]

lowerline, on Oct 5 2004, 07:47 AM, said:

Hi,

When looking for info on the Kokish Rebids after 1♦-2♣, I always find a scheme like this:

1♦ - 2♣
2♦ = 11+ 5+crd ♦
2♥ = 4441
2♠ = GF 4crd ♣
2NT = 15-17 (when playing 12-14 NT opener)
3♣ = 4crd ♣
3♦ = GF 6crd
3♥/♠ = splinter
3NT = 18-19
(The 2♦ and 2NT rebid can still contain a 4crd ♥/♠)

It ends with a comment that it can also be played when playing a 15-17 NT opening.

There are some things I don't understand about this:
1. What do you do with a 3442 and 18-19hcp?
2. When playing a 15-17NT opening, the 2NT rebid becomes 12-14 and hence is not forcing. This seems very inconvenient.

Any thoughts?

Steven

You can probably play 1D - 2C as GF and 1D -3C as invititional in C.
Still, if you want to add some science to it, you can even combine 1D - 2H as either
strong jumpshift in hearts or club invitational with 5 or 6 cards. So
1D-2H
2S: asking
2N: 5 clubs(or bad 6 clubs) invitational.
3C: 6 clubs, invitational.
3D: SJS, diamond fit(possible club shortness if you want to add more science to it:))
3H: set up trumps as hearts, SJS
3S: SJS, diamond fit, shortness in spades.
3N: SJS, strong balanced, 6 card good hearts.

Also, playing 15-17 1NT, you may meet a simliar problem facing
1D 2D(invitational or better) as well, because your 2NT rebid because nonforcing,
however you really want to bid a game with 14, thus you have no good way to show 14 HCP hands. You can also play 1D 2D as GF and play 1D 2S as SJS or invitational in D, a simliar structure can be apllied here and you probably can develop it yourself. hehe. You guys can probably call this kind of gadget as "Zhu Relay"
Also, it can apply to 1C 2D as well to show either D SJS or invitational in C.

So if you play 1D 2C as GF, you can just rebid 2NT with 18-19 balanced. So 3NT rebid would show 4 club raise, extra value, 2-2-5-4 shape, 15-17 HCP and stoppers in both majors, a picture bid.

[1eyedjack]

lowerline, on Oct 5 2004, 02:47 AM, said:

1♦ - 2♣
2NT = 15-17 (when playing 12-14 NT opener)
1. What do you do with a 3442 and 18-19hcp?

I play 2NT rebid as 15-20. Playing a weak 1NT opener, you want to GF with 15 points opposite a 2/1. Once you are GF the requirements of a narrow range diminish. You may commit to 4N on some 29-30 counts, but it is a price worth paying to give responder a chance to pattern out. Upper limit of the 2N rebid is limited only by failure to open 2N. Can't speak for Kokish.

lowerline, on Oct 5 2004, 02:47 AM, said:

2. When playing a 15-17NT opening, the 2NT rebid becomes 12-14 and hence is not forcing. This seems very inconvenient.

If 2C is not GF then a non-forcing 3-point range 2N rebid (as with SAYC) is a huge minus.

[flytoox]

lowerline, on Oct 5 2004, 11:10 AM, said:

I have no problem rebidding 3NT with 18-19 balanced as long as you don't have a 4crd major (3343). But what do you do when you do have a 4crd major and are 18-19 balanced (4432)?

Second problem: What does responder bid with a limit hand on a 12-14 2NT rebid?

Steven

Even with 4432, 18-19hcp, u still bid 3N. If pd has major, then he must have opening strength and he can bid it at 4 level.

with 12-14hcp, you can rebid 2N. If you think you have good 14hcp then open 1N, dont open 1m.

[Flame]

flytoox, on Oct 5 2004, 03:24 PM, said:

with 12-14hcp, you can rebid 2N. If you think you have good 14hcp then open 1N, dont open 1m.

This is a major problem, i prefer to bid 3nt with 14 hcp and not waste this bid for 18-19 which is rare, but im sure there are better solutions to this, you have 2d/2h/2s and we can use them to solve this problem.

[flytoox]

Flame, on Oct 5 2004, 08:27 PM, said:

flytoox, on Oct 5 2004, 03:24 PM, said:

with 12-14hcp, you can rebid 2N. If you think you have good 14hcp then open 1N, dont open 1m.

This is a major problem, i prefer to bid 3nt with 14 hcp and not waste this bid for 18-19 which is rare, but im sure there are better solutions to this, you have 2d/2h/2s and we can use them to solve this problem.

As Mike said, 1d-2c is the black sheep of 2/1.

[inquiry]

Flame, on Oct 5 2004, 04:27 PM, said:

flytoox, on Oct 5 2004, 03:24 PM, said:

with 12-14hcp, you can rebid 2N. If you think you have good 14hcp then open 1N, dont open 1m.

This is a major problem, i prefer to bid 3nt with 14 hcp and not waste this bid for 18-19 which is rare, but im sure there are better solutions to this, you have 2d/2h/2s and we can use them to solve this problem.

I play this relay. My solution is to use it with 11-14 and 14-16 1NT opening bids, thus, my 2NT rebid is 12-13 (I rarely if ever open an 11 count without a five card suit or 4441), so you can remove the 11 from the pot.

This means 3NT is 17+. I actually play 3NT as 17/18 as with 19 I lie about something, generally showing a good hand with four card support.

Ben

[Flame]

I checked a bit, i saw ETM and AMBRA both bid 2d with the 12-14 bal , with relays , and save 2nt for stronger hands.
and there is the nice answer you got somewhere else which hope its ok that ill quote
I play two different schemes with a strong NT, with different partners
a)
1D-2C-
2D any hand that can't bid anything else (including weak NT), F1
2NT 18-19 balanced
rest as above

or


1D - 2C
2D - min unbalanced
2H - 12/14 or 18/19 balanced/4441 singleton club
2S - spade reverse
2NT - heart reverse
3C - min unbalanced with 4 clubs
3D - FG 6+ diamonds
3H - forcing club raise that doesn't want to go pass 3NT or heart
splinter (3S asks - the forcing raise is usually 18-19 bal, 3NT to
play opp heart splinter)
3S - splinter
3NT - 4441 15-17

after 1D - 2C - 2H
2S = fg relay, bid on assuming opener is 12-14 balanced (3C = 44 in
the minors, 3D = 5 diamonds, 3NT = 3343 minimum, 3H/3S = natural 44 in
the suit & diamonds, 2NT = anything else)
2NT/3D = invitational
3C = fg with clubs (we play 1D-3C inv otherwise you could play 3C here
as forcing)
> Steven

[BrianEDuran]

Hi all

I like the kokish structure a lot. For me it is especially help for since we play 10-13 in white and 12-14 in red. The 14-15- hands are hard to bid, but this structure helps. We play.

2D=1RF, 5+ (2N, 3m NF)
2H=1RF, 4=4=4=1 or bal. 14-15- (2N, 3m NF)
2S=strong with clubs
2N=15+ - 17 balanced
3C=min with clubs

we always show four card majors unless the hand is really strong so with any hand with 18-19 point balance and a four card major, your partner will push to slam when they have a four card major.

While it has yet to come up I like having the 2S as the strong club support. You can start looking for slams at a very low level, or play in 3NT if you don't like what you hear. But as I said, never come up yet, so hard to judge how useful it is.

I think the most useful thing is being able to play in 3m in a constructive way. It seem like most plays after making 5 bids below 3NT they are always going to bid 3NT. And it allows you to bid 2C on wider type of hand.

Brian