[jillybean]

SOQS...

I play that 3♣ here shows extras, how do you bid this hand?

K4, AJ762, A, JT962   1♥:2♦

If 3♣ shows extras, do you play purely hcp extras or can extra be 55 shape and you can show that with subsequent bidding ie
1♥:2♦ 3♣:3♦ 3♠ hcp+
1♥:2♦ 3♣:3♦ 3♥ shape+

If 3♣ shows no extra but is simply shape how do you show your strength, or weakness?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Are you saying 3♣ always shows shape ( 5-5 ) and you are next trying to show if you have extras or not ?

[helene_t]

This hand is barely extras with so much in the short suits. So 2♠ for me.

sorry i mean 2♥

This post has been edited by helene_t: 2011-September-18, 09:25

[jillybean]

removed after edit

[jillybean]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-September-18, 08:35, said:

Are you saying 3♣ always shows shape ( 5-5 ) and you are next trying to show if you have extras or not ?

No. I am asking if 3♣ shows extras, is it purely hcp extras or can it be based on shape and if so, how do you show shape extra, vs hcp extra.

Opener could have the hand posted or Kxx,AJxxx,A,KQxx

[han]

A minimal 5-5 is not enough, you'll need extra HCP. Give me x AQxxxx x AJ10xx though and I'd definitely bid 3C.

[BunnyGo]

han, on 2011-September-18, 10:31, said:

A minimal 5-5 is not enough, you'll need extra HCP. Give me x AQxxxx x AJ10xx though and I'd definitely bid 3C.

So with the original hand presented you just bid 2♥?

[wyman]

BunnyGo, on 2011-September-18, 10:35, said:

So with the original hand presented you just bid 2♥?

I would also.

[jmcw]

I play any new suit at the 3 level shows extra HCP. This treatment can cause some problems, since you may be supressing you shape, but on balance I think it better than rebidding some crappy 5/5 at the 3 level.
FWIW I rebid 2♥ with your hand. It's close to 3♣, but 1/2 your 13 points are in short suits.

[jillybean]

jmcw, on 2011-September-18, 10:44, said:

I play any new suit at the 3 level shows extra HCP. This treatment can cause some problems, since you may be supressing you shape, but on balance I think it better than rebidding some crappy 5/5 at the 3 level.
FWIW I rebid 2♥ with your hand. It's close to 3♣, but 1/2 your 13 points are in short suits.

This is the style I play, I also play a new suit at the higher level shows extra, so I would rebid 2♥ here. It's been suggested 3♣ here should show extra hcp OR extra shape.
To resolve hcp vs. shape we would then make a temporizing bid (3♠) with the extra hcp and rebid 3♥ with 5-5.

[blackshoe]

I agree with 2♥ on the first of the two hands you've shown, and would bid 3♣ on the second.

The first hand is 15 Bergen "starting points" and 6 losers; the second is 18 "starting points" and 5 losers.

[han]

BunnyGo, on 2011-September-18, 10:35, said:

So with the original hand presented you just bid 2♥?

I would.

[mike777]

"If 3♣ shows no extra but is simply shape how do you show your strength, or weakness?"


I play it does not show extras but this is a very common question to be concerned about.


For starters the vast majority of the time you dont have extras and responder assumes opener does not. In fact responder most often is the stronger hand.

If you(opener) have alot of extras you will plan to bid again over pards signoff.

That means hands roughly in the range of 14-16 are the hands that are an issue.


We try and open many of these hands with a nt type bid to reduce the frequency of the problem.

---

Kxx,AJxxx,A,KQxx

Yes with both weaker and this range of hands we would start 1h=2d=3c
Now responder assumes we have the 10-13 range hand and in practice if responder rebids 3nt we will bid 4nt(quant) with your "problem" hand. With 14-16 I would pass 3nt.

I should add that responder promises 14+ for a 2/1 since we open lite and wide ranging 1 level bids.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

jillybean, on 2011-September-18, 08:53, said:

No. I am asking if 3♣ shows extras, is it purely hcp extras or can it be based on shape and if so, how do you show shape extra, vs hcp extra.

Opener could have the hand posted or Kxx,AJxxx,A,KQxx

I like my system better( for 1H open and a 2/1 GF Response 2C/2D )-- it saves space in defining minimum vs. extras, although it does not address the other-minor length immediately-- and the first priority is for Opener to show 4 cards Sp ( or not ) with a minimum or extras :

Minimum Opener:
1H - 2D!
2H! ( any minimum ) - 2S! ( asks if 4 cards Sp )
2NT! ( minimum and no 4 cards Sp )

Extras:
1H - 2D!
2NT! ( extras but no 4 cards Sp )

After either of the above "2NT" rebids, the 3C! bid could "ask" if there is extra Ht length:
2NT! - 3C!
??
..3D! = no extra Ht length, but have 4+cards Cl
..3H! = 6+ Hts
..3S! = you could use this to show 3+ card support for Responder's minor ( Diam here )
.........or you could exchange the 3D! and 3S! meanings...
..3NT = no extra Ht length, no 4c, no 3d, as well as no 4s -- must be 3 5 2 3

So, for the Opener's hand shown above w/extras ( Kxx,AJxxx,A,KQxx ) :
1H - 2D!
2NT! - 3C!
3D!

and for OP's minimum Opener ( K4, AJ762, A, JT962 )
1H - 2D!
2H! - 2S!
2NT! - 3C!
3D!

[mike777]

This is a very common question in the forums but I think is not reallythat important at the table.


1) Responder is an unpassed hand
2) opp dont overcall
3) Resp. has a gf 2/1
4) opener has extras
5) opener could not open nt
6) your style cant handle a particular magazine bidding prbl.

[whereagles]

You either rebid 2H and later mention clubs or bid 3C and open a can of worms.

[xxhong]

My extra definition is rather low. IMO, if I remove one King and still want to open it at 1 level, I'd call it extra. In your example, I'd open 1H with xx AJxxx A JT9xx, so I just bid 3C.

jillybean, on 2011-September-18, 08:04, said:

SOQS...

I play that 3♣ here shows extras, how do you bid this hand?

K4, AJ762, A, JT962   1♥:2♦

If 3♣ shows extras, do you play purely hcp extras or can extra be 55 shape and you can show that with subsequent bidding ie
1♥:2♦ 3♣:3♦ 3♠ hcp+
1♥:2♦ 3♣:3♦ 3♥ shape+

If 3♣ shows no extra but is simply shape how do you show your strength, or weakness?

[aguahombre]

mike777, on 2011-September-18, 20:36, said:

This is a very common question in the forums but I think is not reallythat important at the table.

1) Responder is an unpassed hand
2) opp dont overcall
3) Resp. has a gf 2/1
4) opener has extras
5) opener could not open nt
6) your style cant handle a particular magazine bidding prbl.

IMO, and using fairly natural 2/1 style without special gadgets for opener's rebid -- knowing opener has extra offensive strength with the 3C rebid COULD be important, but is not always important.

On the given start, diamond and heart rebids by responder show diamonds or hearts, leaving only 3S to be some kind of probe, and we don't have information about opener's strength below 3NT if the high reverse has not shown extras.