[bglover]

In classic 2/1 systems (i.e., Hardy and Lawrence) the sequence 1M-2m-2M does not promise a 6th piece for the rebid.. rather it promises five only and the inability to bid no trump (i.e., an unstopped suit). Only when the suit is bid a  3d time does opener promise extra length.

Some people play that sequence promises 6 or more trumps... My question is what do those bidders do when they hold a 5332 hand and lack a stopper? Do they rebid 2nt anyway? That seems to be the only rebid available, and if that is the case is partner now obligated to have stoppers in unbid suits as protection before bidding 3nt?

[easy]

Quote

In classic 2/1 systems (i.e., Hardy and Lawrence) the sequence 1M-2m-2M does not promise a 6th piece for the rebid.. rather it promises five only and the inability to bid no trump (i.e., an unstopped suit). Only when the suit is bid a  3d time does opener promise extra length.

Some people play that sequence promises 6 or more trumps... My question is what do those bidders do when they hold a 5332 hand and lack a stopper? Do they rebid 2nt anyway? That seems to be the only rebid available, and if that is the case is partner now obligated to have stoppers in unbid suits as protection before bidding 3nt?

yep they rebid 2n without a stopper. Their hands r tied. For them being 100% sure that a rebid shows 6 is more important then having the unbid suits stopped.  Does partner have to have stoppers. Nope. The theory is that if pard doesnt have the stopper the opponents still must find the lead. Im not a big proponent of this style but it seems to work.

however i do rebid 2n in an inverted minor sequence without stoppers in both majors. LOL . I use the same theory..........they have to find the lead. I think it is slightly different than in a 2/1 auction because there r 3 unbid suits in the inverted minor auction instead of 2 as in the 2/1 auction.

[keylime]

That leads to the next logical question...1M or 1NT when holding a five carder? I'm certain there will be some different interpretations.

[bglover]

Oh boy. Now that one's a can of worms... I still do it the old way... 1NT if my 5 carder is bad and my stoppers outside are good... but I sure as hell do get heck for it by some...

[dageaux]

for what it's worth, i will usually open 1nt if the hand is otherwise suitable for no trump. this includes a 5 card M OR a 6 card m (sometimes). i've found it easier to later show shape than to later show strength.

[pbleighton]

For those who always bid 1 NT, even with a 5 card major, what Stayman variant do you use to try to find 5-3 major fits. Bergen recommends 3c as Puppet Stayman for game-going hands (he uses 2s as a transfer to clubs).  What do you do?

[inquiry]

Interesting thread, with several interesting questions and treatments.  

1) I open 1NT with 14-16, or 15-17 with five card majors and 5-3-3-2 frequently. I have no problem opeing iwth a small doubleton or a strong major. With a stong major and 17, I open the major as I consider a good five card suit and 17hcp too good for a 1NT opening bid. With 14 and a strong 5 card suit, I sometime stretch and open 1NT even playing 15-17 for the same reason.

2) Over 1M-2m-?  I will rebid 2NT without a stopper in all two  suits, but only rarely. Of course, I much less likely to have such a hand, since I didn't open 1NT to begin with.  In order of preference with 5-3-3-2 hands: I wil lebid 2 of my major on a five card suit if resonably strong. If my suit is weak, and one side suit is unstopped, I will have a stong holding in the other 3 card suit, so I will bid that at the two level (if possible). The idea is that if I am weak and balanced, I try to keep the bidding low to allow my 2/1 game forcing partner more room to describe his hand (over 2C, 2NT takes away the rest of the 2 level). Lacking all of that, say partner bid 2D and I have 3 small in the other major and 3 strong clubs and weakish in my own major), I will rebid 2NT.

Do I play puppet stayman over 1NT because i open it with a five card major? No. I do play a flavor of puppet  over all the 2NT auctions, but not 1NT.

[keylime]

I use Puppet Stayman at 3C over a 14-16 VUL NT in KLP but not when playing 2/1. With regards to the 5 card major, if my values are concentrated within that suit, then it's opened 1M -- if my hand is scattered with some intermediates, then I open 1NT.

[Yzerman]

In reference to the problem of opening 1NT with a 5 card major, I have found a fairly effective approach that works (for me).  The approach is very simple, apply the following "test" to your major suit;

*  Upon a 1NT forcing auction, would you feel comfortable playing 2 of that major IF partner takes a preference to your major holding two small (xx).

That is the generalized approach that I take.  There are some additional personal limits that I abide by but they are perhaps a little extreme and I do not offer this as advice but rather my "theory".  My minimum requirements for 1M are A10xxx, K108xx, Q109xx.  Now obviously that rule is very "fuzzy" depending on hand pattern, type, and texture but balanced hands in general follow that logic.

In reference to your original question regarding of whether 1M-2m-2M promises a 6th trump.  First of all, I admit that I not a well read bridge player, in fact I have NEVER read a bridge book in my life so I cant reference Hardy, Lawerance or others.  But lets assume that you are in a NEW partnership and this is an UNDISCUSSED topic and you encounter this auction (this is NOT a problem in an established partnership, you WILL have this auction ironed out).  What would the concensus among "experts" agree that the standard is?  Given answer to previous question what would you rebid?

I am not sure if there is a correct answer, however in general I think you can apply the following logic;

* USE GOOD JUDGEMENT *

If the hand looks like NT, then bid NT.  If the hand looks suit oriented default on bidding NT at your first available opportunity.  That would be my approach in a NEW partnership with no agreements.

Now I will lend some more of my personal preferences to 2/1 bidding in general (in the event that any cares!).  Some of the rules apply to the responder to make my life easier as opener.  Here are my preferences in 2/1 auctions;

a) Rebid NT when the hand looks NT "ish" or when there is an OBVIOUS advantage to playing NT from your side of table.

Application of picture bidding (1M-2m-2M-4M).  Promise GOOD minor, GOOD trumps and no controls in unbids.  Hence by negative inference 1M-2m-2M-3M is NOT the above.

c)  Upon 1M-2m-2M auctions, responder is NEVER, EVER to raise the major on xxx.  Hence by negative inference 1M-2m-2M-"anything but 3M" DENIES HONOR-XX IN MAJOR (honor including the 10).

d) Given rule ©, I now like to use 2NT as a fact finding or temperizing bid asking for further description of the openers hand.

When the above logic is applied, then you have a lot of positive and negative bidding inferences (and facts) to base the remainder of what will hopefully be a  constructive auction.

* BUT ONCE AGAIN, SYSTEMS, AND AGREEMENTS ARE ONLY AS GOOD AS THE BIDDING JUDGEMENT APPLIED IN GENERAL. *

[Codo]

Hi all,

There are two major themes here:

First: Rebid 2 NT or 2 M after 1 M 2 m?

After this is a question in 2/1, my answer is simple: Rebid 2 NT to show your hand pattern. You have a game forcing established, so the typical disadvantages like in other natural systems do not occur.

Second: Open 1 NT with 5 card major.

I never do while playin strong NT, but frequently when
playing weak NT (11-13).

I still believe in the old theory, that you should look for major fits, then NT, then minor fits.
As long as noone can convince me, that this rule is wrong, I will still do so.
And if you are not able to show your strong hand after a 1 in a major opening, you maybe should just improve your system. With the standard here, there is no big deal with this.

But like Yserman (and others) said: Nothing is as important as judgement....

Kind Regards

Roland

[bglover]

Well, back to an old thread..

Was just watching the following hand:

Aj10
KQJxx
xxx
Kx

Opener was playing 2M rebid promises 6th trump.

Sure enough the auction goes 1H-p-2C-p-?

By default a 2nt rebid followed by 3n... down the 1st five tricks.

His partner's hand was:

Kxx
Ax
xxx
AJ10xx

Opener said to his partner "how do we avoid this?"

Now, we know how I avoid it... the real question I have is this: Do you get enough GOOD results by defautling to 2M promises 6 to offset these disasters?

Does the theory that rebidding only with 6 pieces improve odds of finding correct game or does it lessen it? I would like to see some numbers here if available because my gut tells me that the advantage to rebidding with 6 doesn't exist...although when I play SAYC I insist on it due to system agreements.

[Yzerman]

I am 100% in agreement with 2over1 on this treatment.  IMHO, the main reason for rebidding a 5 card major is for auction CAPTAINCY.  The rebid of the major is used as a temporizing bid in which the auction has no clear cut direction at that point.

Here are a few things that my regular partner and I play(mentioned earlier);

a) NEVER give a free raise of a major on xxx or honor-x after rebid of 2M in a 2/1 auction.

ALWAYS raise that major immediately if that major will be the trump suit (and satisfies (a)).

c) Use 2NT as a tool to bide time and temporiize (Partner did not rebid NT for a reason).  Use this as a tool to further describe the openers hand.

[belgian]

Quote

Sure enough the auction goes 1H-p-2C-p-?

His partner's hand was:

Kxx
Ax
xxx
AJ10xx

To me, this hands feels a bit weak for a G/F bid. I'd favor 1NT followed by 2NT showing an invitational hand with 11-12 points.