[MomoTheDog]

BBO is filled with Polish experts who play the Polish club but do not adequately self-alert their bids - which slows the game down immensely.

What advantages does this method have over a far more natural Precision or even popular SAYC/2-1/acol methods? Doesn't stuffing a multiple different meanings to openings make it easy for competent opponents to profitably preempt them? As I understand, the Polish club is incredibly popular at all levels of bridge in Poland, but why is it popular if their methods are so convoluted, unnatural and confusing (not to mention being incredibly hard to learn)?

[jtfanclub]

MomoTheDog, on Dec 16 2007, 02:46 AM, said:

As I understand, the Polish club is incredibly popular at all levels of bridge in Poland, but why is it popular if their methods are so convoluted, unnatural and confusing (not to mention being incredibly hard to learn)?

Sigh.

SAYC:
1♣=
12-14 balanced, clubs => diamonds, OR
18-19 balanced, OR
12-21 hcp and a club suit

WJ2005
1♣=
12-14 balanced, OR
18+ any shape, OR
15+ hcp with a club suit.

And so on and so forth. WJ2005 bids are generally both more natural and easier to learn than SAYC. If you want to have some fun, try giving a full explanation for the SAYC 1♣ bid to people who have never seen SAYC or 2/1 played.

In my very humble opinion, the real reason why bridge is dying in the U.S. is because SAYC is too freakin' hideously complicated. EZBridge is helping (a lot), but a bidding system of bridge where people can learn it casually in a couple of days instead of studying it like a freakin' course would help enormously.

My question is, why is Standard American so popular when its methods are so convoluted, unnatural, and confusing (not to mention incredibly hard to learn)?

[Aberlour10]

MomoTheDog, on Dec 16 2007, 02:46 AM, said:

As I understand, the Polish club is incredibly popular at all levels of bridge in Poland, but why is it popular if their methods are so convoluted, unnatural and confusing (not to mention being incredibly hard to learn)?

Traditions. There were a very few possibilities in Poland to learn other systems before online bridge started. The things began to change since BBO went online and several hundreds of Poles are logged every time. I suppose more than a half of them have not only "WJ" in their profiles but SAYC or 2/1 or Precision etc too.
But it's true, if 2 Poles play together, they still prefer to play Polish Club.

Robert

[gwnn]

jtfanclub, on Dec 16 2007, 11:31 AM, said:

WJ2005 bids are generally both more natural and easier to learn than SAYC.

Yes, 1♣!-1♦! and the follow-up sequences being prominent examples.

[Gerben42]

I prefer to play Polish Club with a pickup partner before I start with something so ill-defined like SAYC or 2/1.

First of all, on a great majority of hands you open the same bid in PC as in SAYC.

If you want to learn about advantages of the Polish Club, here are some:

* 1♦ shows 4 cards - easier to support partner
* 1-bids are limited which means you don't have to find a bid with 4 HCP in fear of missing game.
* You don't have to invent fake reverse bids on strong 1-suited hands.
* Strong hands don't start with 2♣ but with 1♣.
* Rebidding 1NT after 1♣ - 1♦ with the 18 - 20 NT hands, thus staying LOW.
* Not having a natural 2NT opening bid.

The list is endless...

[Rossoneri]

Agreed. What is SAYC? Many of my fellow Singaporeans put SAYC in their profile, but if I was to compare it to the real SAYC, I doubt we are really playing SAYC...

jtfanclub has probably given a very good example of the comparison between the SAYC 1♣ and Polish 1♣. Having played a bit of Polish club myself, (though not WJ, I am using mickyb and davidc's polish club notes) I find that the system is more intuitive than sayc in a few ways.

After partner opens 1♦ and opponents interfere, I can safely compete with 4♦s in my hand, or even try to compete with 3. (Since partner is more likely to have 5)

My 1♠ is limited to 11(or 12) to 17 HCP. I can easily distinguish my hand as 12-14 HCP or 15-17 HCP to my partner. The limited range also makes it easier to explore game/slam.

The 2♣ opening serves to have some pre-emptive effect. I gained quite a few imps just from playing 2♣ AP in a tournament last weekend.

The 1♣ opening may seem hard to distinguish at first, but wouldn't you have the same problem in SAYC? Having 1♣ as a possible balanced 12-14 is probably a more useful bid in competitive bidding/defending.

Besides, many sequences are repeated in polish club, e.g. 1♣-1M-2♦ is gf, so is 1♣-1♦-2♦ (albeit the opening hand is different, but both auctions are gf).

If you still aren't convinced, you could try taking a look at carrot club first.

[hrothgar]

MomoTheDog, on Dec 16 2007, 10:46 AM, said:

BBO is filled with Polish experts who play the Polish club but do not adequately self-alert their bids - which slows the game down immensely.

What advantages does this method have over a far more natural Precision or even popular SAYC/2-1/acol methods? Doesn't stuffing a multiple different meanings to openings make it easy for competent opponents to profitably preempt them? As I understand, the Polish club is incredibly popular at all levels of bridge in Poland, but why is it popular if their methods are so convoluted, unnatural and confusing (not to mention being incredibly hard to learn)?

One of the biggest advantages is pissing off xenophobic twits...

[Rossoneri]

hrothgar, on Dec 16 2007, 07:44 PM, said:

MomoTheDog, on Dec 16 2007, 10:46 AM, said:

BBO is filled with Polish experts who play the Polish club but do not adequately self-alert their bids - which slows the game down immensely.

What advantages does this method have over a far more natural Precision or even popular SAYC/2-1/acol methods? Doesn't stuffing a multiple different meanings to openings make it easy for competent opponents to profitably preempt them? As I understand, the Polish club is incredibly popular at all levels of bridge in Poland, but why is it popular if their methods are so convoluted, unnatural and confusing (not to mention being incredibly hard to learn)?

One of the biggest advantages is pissing off xenophobic twits...

Oh yes of course....

and on the other hand, there was once I was playing against a polish pair in a tourney while I was playing with my regular partner...I wondered what their reaction was when I alerted 1C and explained it...

[finally17]

hrothgar, on Dec 16 2007, 06:44 AM, said:

One of the biggest advantages is pissing off xenophobic twits...

While it might be the case here (I really don't think so), people toss the word xenophobic around far too often.

I am not the only one whose is experience is that there are very strong cultural trends in style of bidding, alert explanation, answering partner's and opps' queries, bidding systems and I'm sure other aspects of the on-line game that I'm missing.

The fact that these trends sometimes bother people, or that they don't know how to handle them, and they note the correlation between a particular flag and the trend, does not imply xenophobia.

That's a rather general response to the complaints of "xenophobia" I have seen on BBO. More applicably, the idea that a non-Pole, especially one below a certain level, would be confused by the Polish club is hardly surprising. It doesn't matter that SAYC might be more confusing, convoluted, or incomplete, we are generally more comfortable with what we learn first, regardless of how much less efficient or sufficient it is, and it takes time to achieve comfortability with new things.

The question demonstrates "ignorance" which he admits to being in the very asking of his questions. "Xenophobic twit" is not nearly so applicable a term to his questions as "arrogant and ungracious" is of your response.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

The adv. of a polish 1 club opener:
Interference over the 1C opener needs to be constructive,
because a pure destructive methods will destroy the chance
to reach game in a controlled way.

The disadv. of a polish club:
If they have made an jump overcall, you are a lot worse
positioned than after a precision 1 club opener, because the
responder needs to cater for the weak NT.

In short, the polish 1 club opener makes it harder for the
opponents to enter, but if they have entered, you will face
some harder problems.
.........................................................................................
And of course without interference the structure after a
polish 1 club opener is a bit more complicated than after
a precision 1 club opener, although this wont matter a lot.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[han]

Agree with Richard's comment (though it wouldn't have been my choice of words).

If you already know that Polish club is less natural than precision (it isn't), a poor system (it isn't) and played by people who don't follow the rules (meaning your rules) then why ask all these questions?

If you want to understand the system, I suggest asking the same question again without implying that all Polish experts are inconsiderate.

[jdonn]

MomoTheDog, on Dec 16 2007, 02:46 AM, said:

why is it popular if their methods are so convoluted, unnatural and confusing (not to mention being incredibly hard to learn)?

This reminds me of how many ignorant people in the USA often complain that languages like Spanish and French are so confusing and hard to learn. When actually, they are much simpler and easier to learn than English, especially the way Americans speak it.

Try opening your mind a little.

[matmat]

jdonn, on Dec 16 2007, 01:39 PM, said:

MomoTheDog, on Dec 16 2007, 02:46 AM, said:

why is it popular if their methods are so convoluted, unnatural and confusing (not to mention being incredibly hard to learn)?

This reminds me of how many ignorant people in the USA often complain that languages like Spanish and French are so confusing and hard to learn. When actually, they are much simpler and easier to learn than English, especially the way Americans speak it.

Try opening your mind a little.

yow keyrow tack-cow bell

i think part of the problem regarding polish club is that a lot of online players (and I don't mean top-flight pairs who play online) have a tendency to underalert their calls. and i don't know whether it's problems with english or just the general disposition of polish players, but even when alerted, the explanations can be curt and vague.

[hotShot]

The big advantage of a system that has a 'catch-all-strong-hands' bid (like precision or Polish Club) is that it limits all other bids.
This is a big advantage in the fight for the partscore.

[paulg]

matmat, on Dec 16 2007, 08:14 PM, said:

i think part of the problem regarding polish club is that a lot of online players (and I  don't mean top-flight pairs who play online) have a tendency to underalert their calls. and i don't know whether it's problems with english or just the general disposition of polish players, but even when alerted, the explanations can be curt and vague.

I think that players from all countries tend to underalert their calls, especially those that they believe are 'standard' and do not require an alert in their own country.

Paul

[finally17]

jdonn, on Dec 16 2007, 01:39 PM, said:

This reminds me of how many ignorant people in the USA often complain that languages like Spanish and French are so confusing and hard to learn. When actually, they are much simpler and easier to learn than English, especially the way Americans speak it.

That second sentence is mythical. I'm happy to argue linguistics with you if you want. It's definitely the stance to take against stupid Americans, but it's just wrong.

[helene_t]

I found English more difficult to learn than any other foreign language because the pronunciation is so irregular, but it is really comparing apples with oranges. English has the advantage of not having genders, and the word order is simple compared to German and Dutch.

[jdonn]

finally17, on Dec 16 2007, 04:21 PM, said:

jdonn, on Dec 16 2007, 01:39 PM, said:

This reminds me of how many ignorant people in the USA often complain that languages like Spanish and French are so confusing and hard to learn. When actually, they are much simpler and easier to learn than English, especially the way Americans speak it.

That second sentence is mythical. I'm happy to argue linguistics with you if you want. It's definitely the stance to take against stupid Americans, but it's just wrong.

You're apparently happy to argue anything with anyone at any time, as long as it's off topic.

[han]

jdonn, on Dec 16 2007, 01:39 PM, said:

MomoTheDog, on Dec 16 2007, 02:46 AM, said:

why is it popular if their methods are so convoluted, unnatural and confusing (not to mention being incredibly hard to learn)?

This reminds me of how many ignorant people in the USA often complain that languages like Spanish and French are so confusing and hard to learn. When actually, they are much simpler and easier to learn than English, especially the way Americans speak it.

Try opening your mind a little.

Pff, if English was good enough for Jezus then it is good enough for me.

[finally17]

jdonn, on Dec 16 2007, 04:34 PM, said:

You're apparently happy to argue anything with anyone at any time, as long as it's off topic.

I suppose there might be a PhD in ling posting around here, but if there's not than I have at least as much training in the field as anyone, having one of my undergrad majors in psycholinguistics, with a minor in teaching English as a second language.

I'm not looking to flash credentials, bachelor's don't count for much, but it's rather likely that I'm more informed on the subject than you.

And while I might not be on topic, I am responding to things that are off-topic as well. You chose to be needlessly insulting while at the same time you were wrong. I take exception to people being needlessly insulting, in case you haven't noticed.