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Fantunes 2 opening continuations - system suggestion Looking for constructive criticism

#1 User is offline   Jinksy 

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Posted 2011-September-29, 04:14

This is a system of responses I put together over the Fantunes opening 2 bids. I take it as read the stuff on bridgewithdan (the actual Fantunes system) is better, but I wanted something that a mortal could learn, and let’s face it, toying with system is fun. Constructive criticism very welcome (both on the bidding itself and my explanations of it/clear errors I haven't noticed), ‘rewrite your entire system’ comments less so. It might be true, but I've spent too long on this to be willing to undo it all just yet...

(to explain the chatty style, it was orginally a Google doc shared with at a few semi-regular Ps)

I tried to juggle a few general principles:
1) keep the structure over all the 2 (suit) openings quite regular, if not natural, so that you don’t need to memorise every single bid to play it.
2) allow responder to ask about most of the common hand types where compatible with 1.
3) where compatible with 1, and 2, have responder playing the contract assuming it’s not in the opening denomination.
4) where compatible with 1, 2 and 3, have a
5) finding the right game strain > finding the right part score strain. (that said, I think one of the current weaknesses that might be possible to fix without extensive changes is knowing when to play in 5m – at the moment you have a lot of ways to look for 4M, but on failing to find it, you have to punt 3N or 5m)
6) There's plenty of room to show balanced 21-22 counts when your 1 level bids are forcing, so the 2N opening was effectively a free bid, which I've made conventional (described below in section 0.1), showing a hand type that would otherwise have opened 2a, to help disambiguate.

Known weaknesses:
What I said about punting 5m/3N
More complicated than I would like it to be, or at least maximally complicated, so I’ve had to leave out a few obvious improvements for the sake of getting it this simple (the idea is to have something that I could persuade a semi-regular partner to learn)
In the interest of constructive auctions, with a 55 shape and a max (11-13ish, although you’ll prob be upgrading on quite a few of those hands), you open the cheaper of the two suits. With a min you open the higher. So on slightly stronger hands it’s harder for you when the bidding takes off.

So:

Optional parts of system (and headers) bolded

After intervention to opener’s left (looking for thoughts on how to handle this best - esp after X, should pass and new suit bids be unaffected?):
As a test for now, P over suit is forcing if opener is second in, over any level of suit bid, or in the auction 2C 2D P (ie we don’t sell out to 2D/give them a cheap no-risk chance to disrupt our auction)
New suits ignore their X
X is takeout up to 3S (not inclusive)
XX is points and no fit (or rescue when protecting)
2N over X points and fit
Fit jumps on (F1), showing 8+ cards total, 3+ in opener’s suit, 4+ in other, though with only three also a ruffing value. No point range. opener shows support if he has it, responder can start cuebidding with slam interest
2N-3S are Leb (FASS)?






S0: 1N openings

Open 1N, on any 12-14 hand (11-14 NV) with any of the following distributions:
4333
4432
5332
4441
5422 (except with 5S 4H)
Also open on precisely 3226 and 3262 unless the hand looks particularly unsuitable for NT play (opening 2m means P will be unable to find a 5-3 S fit)

S0.1: decision tree for 2N openings

The continuations here are just the first that occurred to me. Would it be better to have response to multi style ones showing the cheapest suit you’re willing to play in, or similar? (or does that not work over an effectively 3 level opening?)

2N = 4+S 6+ other, at least two card differece (with 5S 6 other, open 2 of the lower suit), 9-13
3C = pass or correct (opener’s rebid can be corrected to 3S to play)

3D = show suit

3H = Cs

3S to play
3N to play
4C to play
4S to play

3S = Ds

3N to play
4D to play
4S to play

3N = Hs

After 3HSN, 4C sets cheaper suit, seeking cues (do we bother with shortage/singletons?), suit indicated is signoff, other bids cues for S (bid above suit kickback?)
3H = show range (prob hoping to steal a cheeky 3N?)

3S = any max
3N/4CD show min with CDH respectively

Xfer accepts are signoff

New suits cues for long suit
4S to play

3S to play
3N to play
4CD = ?
4H to play
4S to play


In 3rd and 4th, not much point in this bid, so 2N natural showing 25+ balanced, GF (can it contain 5 card major?). Actually, could it be a 2-way bid in 1st and second? Either 25+ balanced or this. With the former, he makes the cheapest non-system rebid over whatever partner calls.

S1: Responder’s first bid after 2a

1) Direct raises are preemptive
2) 2a+1 is feature ask
3) New suits between 2a+1 and 2N are natural, non inv, attempt to correct part score - opener can only pull with a much more extreme distribution than expected, though can raise on 4+ (via 2N or 3b with strength – 3b shortage)
4) Responses between 2N and 3H either indicate a long major (see section 6.1) or a minor (see all of section 6) - exceptions are a direct raise of suit a (preemptive), and 2S 2N - feature ask.
6) 3S has an optional use (section 7) that isn’t essential to the system – unusual NTesque (both minors or unbid minor and a major, GF+) otherwise it doesn’t exist (except as a raise for 2S, where 3H is the equivalent bid).
7) 3N is to play
8) 4 level suits (apart from 4a) are currently EKCB, but I can be persuaded there’s a better use for them.
9) 4 and 5N are quantitative (although a bit pointless unless you’re hoping to get the slam on the lead - otherwise you can feature ask for range. Maybe this is looking for a finer range - a real max, probably, not just slightly featurey junk that can’t bear to bid any min). With something extra to say about his distribution opener can say it (naturally) at whatever level seems appropriate.

S2: Opener’s rebid

1) Over a feature ask, rebid 2a+2 with any min (see section 3 for continuations)
1.1) With a max, 2a + 3 shows 3-4 Hs, 2a+4 shows 3-4Ds, 2a+5 (ie 3a), +6 and +7 shows 5 cards in the suit immediately above, up to 3H (eg 2H 2S 3H shows 5S). 3S (or 3H where S was the initial suit) shows either 6322 (where the 3 are either a minor or S) or 7222 dist (2S openers can’t show a D fragment). 3N shows a more distributional hand – 7 cards in the initial suit, fewer than 3DH, fewer than 4S (over 2S openings you have to condense these bids into 3N, or with a max and 7 unbalanced you might just rebid 4S - alternative here might be to go via ‘any min). See section 4 for continuations to these positive responses.
2) Over a direct raise or part score correction, normally pass, though with extreme distribution might bid again (might depend on opps’ reactions!)
4) Over xfer to major, accept the xfer with no tolerance (J stiff or worse); 3S if available is natural, max, no fit; 3N is tolerance+ but unenthusiastic; 4 level bids accept the suit, show cues
5) Over 2S 3H, bid 3S without tolerance and nothing much extra in Ss (cues by responder now insist on Hs), 3N with no tolerance and longer Ss than indicated (decent 6+) - now 4C & D had better be setting Hs and Ss respectively as the trump suit, 4HS just to play - 4 of a suit accepting Hs and cueing.

S3: Continuations over negative response to feature ask

Responder’s options:
1) 2a+3 asks about Hs and Ss (promising Hs)
2) 2a+4 asks about Ss only
3) 2a+5 (3a) is a signoff
4) 3 of unbid M is natural, prob 5 or mediocre 6, GF, looking for secondary support (Hx, xxx) or better. 3M+1 is negative, other bids cues
5) 3N is to play
6) 4a is to play when a is a major, seeks cues when a minor. 4a+1 is kickback for a.
(In 1 & 2), where the major in question wasn’t opener’s initial suit, the ask is for 4 cards. Where it was, opener should apply judgement – with a decent 6+, respond affirmatively, with a mediocre 6, respond affirmatively iff your hand has useful looking features (ideally Axxx elsewhere and a top-end minimum)
Opener’s responses to 1):
2a+4 denies Hs, shows S. Responder’s non-signoff bids now cues for S.
3a is a signoff
3a +n (excluding 3H) shows shortage
4 level bids are fit showing (4a showing a passable 7+ in original suit)
3N shows H’s but with no features to show in space available. Cues agree Hs.
Opener’s responses to 2):
Signoff denies S
Other bids are analogous to positive responses to 1)

S4: Continuations after positive responses to feature ask

3N to play over any response

After 2a+3 response to minor openings (showing 3-4 Hs)
2a+4 = further major ask (section 5)
3a is a signoff, but must imply S interest. Opener should bid on with 3+S. (System here not essential - just don’t bid S - since your destination is almost always 4S, but just in case on marginal hands, could play <3S with exactly 3S (in case it’s still not enough - responder can sign off in 3S), 3N with 4S, 4a with a particularly long opening suit and values (might be singleton) in S, and 4om with 5350/5305.)
3H = natural, setting Hs, seeking cues (though 3S by opener prob best as natural showing 4 or 5S)
3S = natural, GF 5S, looking for xxx or Hx support)
3a+n (under 3N, excluding 3H) show stops for NT (without anything in other suit, bid 4a, which opener can pass)
4H = to play

After 2H 2S 3C/D (showing C/D)
[Current bid]+1 = H/S ask, with analogous continuations as over negative response+1: next step denies extra Hs (decent 6) shows 4Ss, step above denies either, 2 steps above or higher show Hs (though ideally over 2H 2S 3D 3H, we shoudl invert 3S/3N to keep opener from playing 3N)
[Current bid]+2 = S ask only, again with analgous continuations: 1 step denies S, 2 or steps are cues showing them
4C/D GF raise in the minor in question (other 4 level bids cues agreeing Hs)

After 2S 2N 3D (showing Hs)
Analogous to ‘any min’ continuations (section 3)
3H asks Hs & Ss (opener bids 3S with extra Ss and only 3Hs, 3N with neither, cues with 4Hs)
3S asks S (3N with no extras) – or sets Ss, intending to bid on over 3N
4 level cues set Hs

After 2a+4 response to minor openings (showing other minor, denying 3Hs)
3a signoff. Opener can bid on, but needs to be more circumspect than if he’d shown Hs – he might well have denied anything in the suit responder was after, so should probably have values in H and a real max. (as after signoff over 2a+3, system inessential, but prob more useful here, since we might be heading for either 3N or 4S, but would still like opener not to play. Decent and fairly simple setup would be 3H to show 4S, 3S to deny them)
3D (if available) natural, 5D GF

3H asking for 4S (3N = yes, 3S = no)
3S natural, 5S GF
Bidding either minor at the cheapest level sets the suit (for cues or minorwood?)
4HS to play

After 2S 2N 3H/S (showing C/D)
Over 3H, 3S +1 asks for extra S length (decent 6+ as elsewhere). 3N by opener denies, new bids besides 3N cues for S, except bid of indicated minor now shows preference
4 level bids of the indicated minor set it, other suits are cues for S

After xfer to new 5 card suit
3a can conceivably be passed, all other sequences GF
Accepting the xfer sets the suit, solicits cues
3M is natural, good 5 or mediocre 6, looking for xxx/Hx support (3N denies)
Other bids (inc 4a) cues for the new suit

After 3S (/2S P 3H)
All bids natural, 4 level suits all setting suit, forcing (with weaker hands, responder would have xferred over 2a), 3N to play

After 3N
4a where a is m sets suit (denominationwood?)
4m (m /= a) =?
4HS to play

S5: Further continuations after 2m, then H showing response to feature ask followed by major ask

3a shows one or both 4 card majors. Continuations resemble promissory Stayman: responder bids his 4cM (opener bids 3N or sets suit a naturally with the other one, or cues on a fit).
3D when free = ?
3H shows 3H 3S exactly (next bid sets trumps, cue = H)
3S shows no further length (ideally this would be 3C if opener’s 1st suit were Cs, allowing responder to pass, leaving 3S as a free bid. No room for that after 2D opening though, so for simplicity’s sake the default will 3D as a free bid after 2C opening), ie 3H, <3S. Responder can cue for Hs or rebid to set suit a (or would suits be better asking/showing stops?).
3N shows 5S (4CDH should prob just set the suit now as a, H, S, respectively, opener forced to complete xfer and responder can cue on if he likes (seems better to have H and suit a reversed so opener can bid the step up without stealing the contract – responder can sign off in 4H or cue on. Even if opener has to sign off later, having the other hand on display will be less risky at a higher level when the opps have fewer decisions to make in defence). If 4a happens to be 4C, obv it’s forcing.)

(one possibly important major combination that this system can’t find - 4H and 3S. Could make the system asymmetric to make this easy to find over 2C opening, not sure it’s an option after 2D, though swapping it for another omission wouldn't be too hard).

S6.1: Minor/major suit indications

Over 2a, 2N, 3C, 3D & 3H, where they’re not 3a and therefore preemptive (ie 2H 3H), are an xfer to the nearest unbid suit above them (eg 2D 3C is an xfer to 3H). The exception is over 2S, where 2N is feature ask, so everything is scaled up a step, ie natural. So for eg these are your xfer options over 2C:

2C 2N = Ds
2C 3D = Hs
2C 3D = Ss

Indications of (which I’ll just call xfers to to save effort, even though it’s inaccurate over 2S) the majors are simple, and dealt with in section 1, #s 4 & 5.

S6.2: Minor suit indications continued

Xfers to the minors (I’ll call the indicated minor suit b) show one of two hand types - either 4 or 6+ in suit b. Either way they’re GF, happy to play in at least 5b opposite a 4 card fit. If they have only 4 cards, responder will normally have another 4 card suit (outside suit a), so they initiate a Baron-esque sequence. Where 2a was a major, an indication of D eschews a 4-4 fit in Cs, so either responder doesn’t have them or he’s got a much better D suit.

Because they show several hand types, the continuations here are probably the most complicated part of the system. I’ve made them as uniform as possible.

Suit rebids at the three level are step responses below 3N. Specifically:
Step 1 shows the cheaper of the suits p might have an interest in outside suit b, possibly also the other. (if if responder has already denied interest in clubs, this and step two are equivalent, so move step three up accordingly).
Step 2 shows the higher of the 4 card suits , and denies the other (if there’s only 1 other suit responder could be interested in - ie after a 2M opening followed by diamond indication - this is equivalent to 3.1 and ignored as a step).
Step 3 denies 4 cards in any of the suits. By inference, it must show at least 6 in suit a. [see footnote 1 for examples of the step response sequences]
3N shows 4+ of suit b (this bid has priority over step responses) – don’t bother looking for a major fit given responder’s strength), forcing, setting the suit. 4C is now Roman Kickback Gerber (hooray!), everything else is a cue for suit b (5b signoff, obv).
4C shows secondary support (Hx or Hxx) including the Q for suit b, no 4 card suit of interest to p, a control in the other minor, a good hand contextually for P’s response. Except after 2M 3C, this implies opener has 6 cards in suit a. Responder can bid 4N, 5b to play, 4D to set suit a as trumps, or cue.

After any of the step responses, a direct bid of 4b shows a self-supporting trump suit seeking cues.

Otherwise the continuations to the step bids are also step responses, though the top ‘step’ and beyond are positive cues.

Continuations to Step 1:
(Step 1)+1 denies both interest in the suit indicated and extra length in suit b - seeking a 4-4 fit in the unindicated suit. Responder signs off in 3N without, or cuebids with (in this case and many of those below this risks wrongsiding the contract - it might be better to have step responses again, but there’s enough here to digest for now). If responder has already denied interest in clubs, this step doesn’t exist - move the next two up accordingly.
(Step 1)+2 denies interest in the suit indicated or any other - confirming the single-suited hand looking for support for its 6+ minor. Opener cues with support/good tolerance or signs off in 3N without.
(Step 1)+3 or more - accepting the suit indicated, seeking (/offering) cues.
4b solid suit

Continuations to Step 2:
These are the same as over 3.1, but with the first and second steps reversed:
(Step 2)+1 Denies interest in any 4 card suit - confirming the single-suited hand looking for support for its 6+ minor. As above, responder signs off in 3N without or cuebids with.
(Step 2)+2 or more (bypassing 3N if 3.2 was a bid of 3H), found a fit in the more expensive suit, now cuebidding.
3N/4N/5N/6N natural - this was the type of hand looking for a 4-4 fit, didn’t find one. 4N 5N quantitative.
4b solid suit

Continuations to Step 3:
(Step3)+1 Shows single suited hand type still looking for tolerance (cheapest NT bid by opener is a second denial)
3N to play, 45N quantitative
4b solid suit
Other bids cue for suit a




[1] Examples:

After 2C 2N
3C shows Hs, possibly Ss (not Ds)
3D shows S, not Hs (nor Ds)
3H shows tolerance for Ds and no Hs or Ss.
3S shows a misfit for p – not as much as H or xx in Ds, nor 4H or S.
(3N shows Ds, 4C diamond fragment, extra Cs by implication and a good enough hand in context to bypass 3N - leaving 4N as an option)

But after 2S 3D
3H shows Hs (not Ds, Cs irrelevant since responder bypassed them)
3S denies Hs or Ds
(3N shows Ds, 4C as above, but here it doesn’t quite promise 6S, since opener might be 5314 (perhaps it should do?))


Section 7: very strong two-suiters

Ignore this section altogether until you’re comfortable with the previous ones. This is just a way to make use of the free 3S response on a rare hand type that will struggle going via any other route – slam seeking 5-5s. It’s basically detached from the rest of the system, so if anyone has a better use for it I’m game:

This only applies to auctions beginning 2CDH atm – there’s no room over 2S, though something similar might be achieved via a 4C/D response. I won’t bother trying to work anything out until I get some feedback on this sequence.

Over 2m, 3S shows a hand with 5om (suit b from hereon), 5H, GF to the degree that it’s willing to play in 4N without a fit, or 5 of the denomination with one. Because it conveys so much info and takes up so much space, a) we no longer care who plays the contract, and b) it makes the auction more conversational than normal – opener assumes some control over the proceedings

Responses:

1) 3N shows no support for any of the three suits (or possibly a 6322 min, with the 3 in a major – though p might then shout at you for missing your 5-3 slam). This implies extra length in the first suit, so new bids must be cues for that.
2) 4C = support for one or both of the majors (denies support for suit b – you’re too strong to be chasing a major fit when you have a minor one). P bids 4D/Hs to indicate H/S. Accepting the xfer shows fit and extras – good hand in context (singleton diamond honour might go a long way on marginal hands), bidding the suit directly at the 5 level shows a fit but wanting to shut the auction down if he needs more from you than you’ve shown. Bypassing shows a negative – bid 4S if you have room and might prefer to play in 4N P’s way if he has tenaces and no Cs, otherwise just bid whichever of 4N and 5a seems likely to go best.
3) 4D = shows 3+ card support for b. Responder now just shows his 5 major, and you continue on the assumption that suit b is trumps, using both hand’s judgement, Thor help you.
4) 4H/S shows upper range for your opening and primary support if that’s responder’s suit – either 5 cards, or 4 and some values in suit b (the latter may well be singleton, though). Next step up is negative bid – if it’s 4N, it’s passable (with a real monster despite your misfit p will have to punt or make up a bid at the 5 level despite your misfit).

Over 2H, 3S shows both minors GF. Responses should be bleedin’ obvious.
The "4 is a transfer to 4" award goes to Jinksy - PhilKing
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#2 User is offline   Jinksy 

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Posted 2011-September-29, 08:38

I've been discussing with MickyB (a much more experienced system designer), and his main problems with the system are opening the cheaper of two 5 card suits ever, and having a negative point showing response to primary feature ask. I have two alternatives in mind, but three key priorities that I don't seem like I'll be able to satisfy: 1) reliably getting the shape of 2-suiters across in constructive auctions, 2) preventing the system from getting any more complicated, and 3) preempting effectively (ie opening the top suit). One seems to have to give.

His recommendation is, I think screw 1), always open the higher. The system above basically abandons 3.

One alternative I’m sympathetic towards is a compromise where I open the higher of touching suits (iff I'me planning to give a positive response to feature assuming a points-negative remains part of the system - otherwise always open the top), and redefine the 2N opening to show something complementary in the same range that seems suitable for it - Hs and a minor perhaps, Ss and a minor (though I'm not keen on going to the 3 level unnecessarily with the master suit).


There's also a question basically unrelated to the rest of the system, about how to deal with interference. My initial inclination is to go for something like this.

Takeout doubles up to 3S (conservative by modern standards, but then over a regular preempt most people would be playing then as pens here, so I could be talked into lower or higher)
After 2a X, ignore the X in bidding, or XX with points and no fit.
After 2C 2D, P is forcing.
After 2a 2b second in, P is forcing up to (inc?) 2S.
After 2a 2b, jumps shifts are fit showing, 2N is probably Leb, which seems a bit silly, but not sure what else I'd want it to be.
The "4 is a transfer to 4" award goes to Jinksy - PhilKing
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