[Vampyr]

A lot of UI situations are due to hesitations, and sometimes these follow a jump bid. Often there is a dispute whether the stop card was held out for 10 seconds (my guess is that it usually wasn't, since 10 seconds is a very long time).

Anyway... suppose South makes a skip bid, or another bid that requires the use of the Stop card, and doesn't hold out the Stop card for 10 seconds. It would be nice if East (the next bidder's partner) were allowed to hold out his Stop card for the remaining time. Then West will get his full ten seconds any question of whether he hesitated.

[AlexJonson]

Perhaps we could just accept that Bridge is a game requiring thought, then we could get rid of stop cards and not worry about 90+% -at least- of cases of UI.

I think it would be horrible to have random players waving stop cards.

[pran]

Vampyr, on 2011-June-27, 14:45, said:

A lot of UI situations are due to hesitations, and sometimes these follow a jump bid. Often there is a dispute whether the stop card was held out for 10 seconds (my guess is that it usually wasn't, since 10 seconds is a very long time).

Anyway... suppose South makes a skip bid, or another bid that requires the use of the Stop card, and doesn't hold out the Stop card for 10 seconds. It would be nice if East (the next bidder's partner) were allowed to hold out his Stop card for the remaining time. Then West will get his full ten seconds any question of whether he hesitated.

We already have this question solved very efficiently in Norway:

The STOP period shall be controlled by the player making a call for which STOP is required by regulation.

This player does so by showing the STOP card during the entire period of ten seconds following his call or by announcing "STOP" and "Continue" at the beginning and end respectively of this period.

The next player in turn to call may not call during this period but is supposed to call as soon as the end of the period is indicated. He is however entitled to his full ten seconds if the end of the STOP period is indicated before ten seconds have elapsed.

[bluejak]

It is not that our regulation is inferior: it is that our regulation is not followed a lot of the time. Stef is suggesting a method to make up for opponents' failure to follow the regulation.

[barmar]

In ACBL, South isn't required to hold out the Stop card for 10 seconds in the first place. Our regulation says that South places the Stop card on the table, makes his bid, returns the Stop card to the box, then West is supposed to wait 10 seconds. But in my experience, many Wests will have their Pass card on the table even before South picks up the Stop card -- they routinely ignore the Stop regulation. So I don't think it would matter if South or East held out their Stop card.

[blackshoe]

One of the better players here (Rochester, NY), who is also a director, tends to hold the stop card out for about six seconds, and then put it away. I asked her about it once. She said, basically, that in her opinion that's long enough. <shrug>

When she does that I pause for ten seconds anyway. Others just ignore it, and hardly ever pause at all.

[aguahombre]

As others have stated, it is the compliance not the regulation, which is weak. And I don't know how any change in the L&R for either ACBL or EBU will fix it.

But I do recommend a color change, so I will stop doubling partner's bids and redoubling RHO's preempts.

[axman]

aguahombre, on 2011-June-28, 11:05, said:

As others have stated, it is the compliance not the regulation, which is weak. And I don't know how any change in the L&R for either ACBL or EBU will fix it.

But I do recommend a color change, so I will stop doubling partner's bids and redoubling RHO's preempts.

I have a vivid recollection of my <very> first duplicate experience:

“I am about to make a skip bid,,, please hesitate ten seconds.”

At that time I was annoyed by the word –hesitate- grinding on my ears as if it was an accusation. I felt distracted, irritated, angry, intimidated, and there was the effect from the bossiness and the degrading that comes from treating adults as children.

And I was kibitzing!

And, you wonder why so many disobey such a demonic rule. The rule conflicts with L73 and L74 which makes it illegal.

[bluejak]

You have a simple, easy rule that makes the game better.

No, I cannot see any justification for not following it.

[mgoetze]

While we are on the subject of stop card regs... I once had the following situation: Partner pulls out the stop card and makes an unusual jump bid. RHO ignores the stop card and instabids. I now take about 15 seconds for my next call, and the same RHO has the nerve to call the TD on me. Now I have been told by two of Germany's top TDs that RHO had every right to do this, the stop card is only for the opponents' benefit, not for mine, and thus I had committed a BIT.

What do your local stop card regulations have to say about this?

[axman]

bluejak, on 2011-June-28, 14:07, said:

You have a simple, easy rule that makes the game better.

No, I cannot see any justification for not following it.

My simple rule is to make no law that forces players to cheat.

and the right thing to do is to
a]teach everyone what good tempo is and why it is important when it comes to fair play and skillful play/being a tougher opponent
b] teach everyone that does not have good tempo how to learn what their normal tempo is
c] make everyone aware that they are expected to [at least] try to have good tempo
d] teach everyone why the mandatory skip bid pause figures into fair play and benefits everyone when everyone makes the effort

[axman]

mgoetze, on 2011-June-28, 15:43, said:

While we are on the subject of stop card regs... I once had the following situation: Partner pulls out the stop card and makes an unusual jump bid. RHO ignores the stop card and instabids. I now take about 15 seconds for my next call, and the same RHO has the nerve to call the TD on me. Now I have been told by two of Germany's top TDs that RHO had every right to do this, the stop card is only for the opponents' benefit, not for mine, and thus I had committed a BIT.

What do your local stop card regulations have to say about this?

The mandatory skip bid pause does little good and may even do harm when players in general do not try to have steady tempo. When players [read 98.5% in real life] do not try to have good tempo then most of the time there is no good tempo to protect.

The mandatory pause is useful for protecting the tempo of all four players, and a player that speed bids in order to feel he is 'justified' to accuse his opponent of cheating has been given some lessons that will not be easily displaced. Which means that if next hand speed bids it is appropriate [read important] for third hand to pause the 10-15 sec that were allotted to second hand.

[nige1]

Vampyr, on 2011-June-27, 14:45, said:

A lot of UI situations are due to hesitations, and sometimes these follow a jump bid. Often there is a dispute whether the stop card was held out for 10 seconds (my guess is that it usually wasn't, since 10 seconds is a very long time).

Anyway... suppose South makes a skip bid, or another bid that requires the use of the Stop card, and doesn't hold out the Stop card for 10 seconds. It would be nice if East (the next bidder's partner) were allowed to hold out his Stop card for the remaining time. Then West will get his full ten seconds any question of whether he hesitated.

The EBU protocol works well, But Vampyr's suggestion is an improvement, My partner follows it,

An alternative idea is to provide each table with a 10 second "egg-timer". The stop-bidder turns it over and places it in front of LHO. LHO bids as soon as the sand runs out.

Rule-makers should consider such options. Whatever protocol they choose should be a matter of law rather than regulation,

[Vampyr]

mgoetze, on 2011-June-28, 15:43, said:

While we are on the subject of stop card regs... I once had the following situation: Partner pulls out the stop card and makes an unusual jump bid. RHO ignores the stop card and instabids. I now take about 15 seconds for my next call, and the same RHO has the nerve to call the TD on me. Now I have been told by two of Germany's top TDs that RHO had every right to do this, the stop card is only for the opponents' benefit, not for mine, and thus I had committed a BIT.

What do your local stop card regulations have to say about this?

The Orange Book is mute on this subject, but I do leave the stop card out when the opponent ignores it. I think that the German TDs have the wrong approach. If the card is for the opponents' benefit, and they fail to take advantage of it, that is their problem; but partner may have needed the time as well.

As Dorothy Parker said when asked to use the word "horticulture" in a sentence:

You can bring a horticulture, but you can't make her think.

[bluejak]

axman, on 2011-June-28, 15:47, said:

My simple rule is to make no law that forces players to cheat.

and the right thing to do is to
a]teach everyone what good tempo is and why it is important when it comes to fair play and skillful play/being a tougher opponent
b] teach everyone that does not have good tempo how to learn what their normal tempo is
c] make everyone aware that they are expected to [at least] try to have good tempo
d] teach everyone why the mandatory skip bid pause figures into fair play and benefits everyone when everyone makes the effort

Following Stop bid regulations is not cheating. Please be serious.

This is a game, not war. We are trying to get people to follow rules generallyy, not treat them as army recruits.

[bluejak]

mgoetze, on 2011-June-28, 15:43, said:

While we are on the subject of stop card regs... I once had the following situation: Partner pulls out the stop card and makes an unusual jump bid. RHO ignores the stop card and instabids. I now take about 15 seconds for my next call, and the same RHO has the nerve to call the TD on me. Now I have been told by two of Germany's top TDs that RHO had every right to do this, the stop card is only for the opponents' benefit, not for mine, and thus I had committed a BIT.

What do your local stop card regulations have to say about this?

When a player fails to follow the rules, he is an offender. Thus RHO is an offender, and the German TDs should recognise this.

[aguahombre]

mgoetze, on 2011-June-28, 15:43, said:

I once had the following situation: Partner pulls out the stop card and makes an unusual jump bid. RHO ignores the stop card and instabids. I now take about 15 seconds for my next call, and the same RHO has the nerve to call the TD on me. Now I have been told by two of Germany's top TDs that RHO had every right to do this, the stop card is only for the opponents' benefit, not for mine, and thus I had committed a BIT.

What do your local stop card regulations have to say about this?

They really said RHO had every right to ignore the stop card? Strange; but, they are probably right that the stop card is not to give you extra time to think. The gamesmanship of RHO seems designed to screw you and would definitely leave ill feelings out there.

[blackshoe]

mgoetze, on 2011-June-28, 15:43, said:

While we are on the subject of stop card regs... I once had the following situation: Partner pulls out the stop card and makes an unusual jump bid. RHO ignores the stop card and instabids. I now take about 15 seconds for my next call, and the same RHO has the nerve to call the TD on me. Now I have been told by two of Germany's top TDs that RHO had every right to do this, the stop card is only for the opponents' benefit, not for mine, and thus I had committed a BIT.

What do your local stop card regulations have to say about this?

Our local regulations (ACBL)say

Quote

Players should protect their rights and the opponent's by announcing, prior to making an opening bid on the two level or higher, or prior to making any subsequent bid that skips one or more levels of bidding:
1. When bidding orally by saying, "I am about to make a skip bid. Please Wait!"
2. When using bidding boxes, by placing the stop card so the LHO sees it (the skip bidder is responsible for gaining LHO's attention). The skip bid is made. The stop card is replaced in the bidding box.

When RHO has announced a skip bid, the player following the skip bidder must wait for a suitable interval (about 10 seconds). In waiting the player's manner must be one that suggests he is an active participant in the auction (the hand should be studied during pause). Any obvious display of disinterest is most improper.

Do German regulations really say that the stop card is only for the opponents' benefit? Seems bizarre. I suspect it's more likely this was a personal opinion of the director concerned. OTOH, I can understand the opinion that, whatever your opponents do, your tempo should not vary.

You might have asked the opponents if they concurred that your RHO broke tempo by bidding quickly, and then when they disagree but decline to call the TD as the law requires, call the TD yourself. Then while you're waiting for him, you can think about your next call. OTGH, I suppose calling the TD for this particular infraction is going to become tedious very quickly, since it happens so often.

nige1, on 2011-June-28, 17:12, said:

Whatever protocol they choose should be a matter of law rather than regulation,

I disagree. I suspect you already knew that. I do like your egg timer suggestion, though.

[aguahombre]

blackshoe, on 2011-June-28, 19:13, said:

and then when they disagree but decline to call the TD as the law requires, call the TD yourself. Then while you're waiting for him, you can think about your next call.

Love it.

[ggwhiz]

IMO the whole business sucks especially at the club level where white on red it goes 1nt - p - 3nt with a stop card prominently displayed as the round is called.

I have never used the stop card, never called the Director on this issue and NEVER felt disadvantaged. BIT's are well handled by other means.