[Vampyr]

Zelandakh, on 2011-August-23, 05:00, said:

Vampyr, if you are going for relays then I can see little advantage in 1H - 2C = GF relay versus 1H - 1S = INV+ relay. You are always better placed with GF hands...

1H - 1S; 1N = min without 4 spades...now 2C is GF relay and you have more information
1H - 1S; 2C = 4 spades...now 2D = GF relay, 1 step higher but with only a few hand types to relay out
1H - 1S; 2D or higher = max without 4 spades....you are already in GF relays with fewer hand types than after 1H - 2C, plus your invitational hands can also relay

The only major disadvantage of this method (aside from ACBL regs) is that the GF is not immediately established. I do not think this makes up for the 3 big advantages of the invitational relay approach (in addition to the above, the third is that your other simple responses can be played as non-forcing).

This is interesting, but I guess the question still remains for those in the ACBL -- which is better, 1H - 2C = GF relay or 2/1 GF (since I assume that artificial bids are permitted in GF auctions).

Quote

The situation is less clear over a 1S spade opening since here the INV+ relay approach is a step higher. I think the 2 methods are roughly equal in this case.

And better than 2/1GF? What do you think? (Personally, I prefer to dispense with all of this and just play weak-style 2/1; OK, mike777?)

I think that one advantage of a strong NT is that you can open all 11-counts. My regular partner is becoming so convinced of the efficacy of this that I fear he is going to talk me into playing strong NT . If my partner is right, then 2/1 GF players are losing out badly due to the necessity of tightening up their openers.

[peachy]

Vampyr, on 2011-August-22, 21:17, said:

Terribly sorry for not moving the discussion forward, whatever that means, lol.

I have a clue what it means. This thread is in the "SAYC and 2/1 Discussion". You say you don't and won't play 2/1 or SAYC.

[Zelandakh]

Vampyr, on 2011-August-23, 10:49, said:

And better than 2/1GF? What do you think? (Personally, I prefer to dispense with all of this and just play weak-style 2/1; OK, mike777?)

As pointed out above this is somewhat off-topic for this forum. However, my feeling is that the relay approach is not better than 2/1 over a 1S opening in a standard context but rather that they break even - some hands are good for 2/1, some for relays. The relays tend to have a small advantage in weak and most slam hands, 2/1 is better with intermediate hands, in competition and also on hands where suit quality is very important. Both methods are very efficient in bidding the best games.

Where opening bids are limited then I believe the relay approach is significantly better than 2/1 - the steps you gain not having to show extras on strong hands are very important when the bidding is already a little cluttered, as it sometimes is in 1S auctions. The limited openings also match the light opening strategy giving the overall system a better harmony.

[Flem72]

Vampyr, on 2011-August-22, 18:32, said:

I certainly won't be one of them. To be perfectly honest, although 2/1 GF is very simple and thus easy to play with casual partners, I don't know why 1M-2♣ as an artificial GF is not favoured by established partnerships. It's true that it is more vulnerable to competition, but otherwise it eliminates a lot of the problems with 2/1 GF. Does anyone know why it is not a more popular method than it is?

Dunno why, but I keep losing my reply window.

Many prefer the serenity that manifests when the 2/1 suit is guaranteed to be 5+ cards. But then you need "something else" to handle (especially) the bigger flat, 3-card raises. I much prefer the "something" -- in an inv+ J2NT structure -- and will play generic 2C forcing only if forced. (H-m-m-m-m)

Regards and Happy Trails,

Scott Needham
Today in one of the most beautiful places on earth, Crested Butte, Colorado

[Zelandakh]

Flem72, on 2011-August-24, 11:58, said:

Many prefer the serenity that manifests when the 2/1 suit is guaranteed to be 5+ cards. But then you need "something else" to handle (especially) the bigger flat, 3-card raises. I much prefer the "something" -- in an inv+ J2NT structure -- and will play generic 2C forcing only if forced. (H-m-m-m-m)

Fred has posted a system for this using a natural 2NT response and making 1H - 2S or 1S - 3C the GF raise. It is available on the downloadable client version (in the Bridge Library under the title "Improving 2/1 GF") but I am not sure if you can read it using the Flash version yet.

[diana_eva]

Zelandakh, on 2011-August-25, 03:18, said:

Fred has posted a system for this using a natural 2NT response and making 1H - 2S or 1S - 3C the GF raise. It is available on the downloadable client version (in the Bridge Library under the title "Improving 2/1 GF") but I am not sure if you can read it using the Flash version yet.

It's on the BBI site, in the "Articles" section:

http://bbi.bridgebas...cles/index.html

[Flem72]

Zelandakh, on 2011-August-25, 03:18, said:

Fred has posted a system for this using a natural 2NT response and making 1H - 2S or 1S - 3C the GF raise. It is available on the downloadable client version (in the Bridge Library under the title "Improving 2/1 GF") but I am not sure if you can read it using the Flash version yet.

Prob'ly not the place to post this, but how in the world do I find the Lobby?

SN

[Zelandakh]

The Lobby is simply the chat channel that you are put in by default before you join a club or tournament. The Library can be found (in the client version) by clicking "Other Bridge Activities" followed by "Bridge Library". The article mentioned above is then found by clicking "English", then "Articles" and finally paging down the list to "Improving 2/1 GF Part I" (also II and III). Diana's link above is probably simpler.

[FrancesHinden]

Vampyr, on 2011-August-23, 10:49, said:

This is interesting, but I guess the question still remains for those in the ACBL -- which is better, 1H - 2C = GF relay or 2/1 GF (since I assume that artificial bids are permitted in GF auctions).



And better than 2/1GF? What do you think? (Personally, I prefer to dispense with all of this and just play weak-style 2/1; OK, mike777?)

I think that one advantage of a strong NT is that you can open all 11-counts. My regular partner is becoming so convinced of the efficacy of this that I fear he is going to talk me into playing strong NT . If my partner is right, then 2/1 GF players are losing out badly due to the necessity of tightening up their openers.

I don't understand this last remark. I open virtually all balanced 11-counts with a 5-card major (and most of those without). I play 2/1 GF. The two seem to co-exist perfectly happily.

[Siegmund]

Quote

I don't understand this last remark. I open virtually all balanced 11-counts with a 5-card major (and most of those without). I play 2/1 GF. The two seem to co-exist perfectly happily.

I am embarrassed to find out how old I am, sometimes: I started playing a Polish style club, specifically to be able to open all my 11s more comfortably in an 11-18 context than a 13-21 context, and was excited at the gains I got opening a lot of hands that the typical regional pairs player passed. But that wasn't the wave of the future in the US: just opening everything in sight and figuring itll all sort itself out later in the auction was

A lot of 2/1 players open most of their 11 counts these days. And some of them like to respond on 4-counts, too.

How happily they coexist depends how unhappy you are about the high frequency and low information content of 1M-1NTF. (People arriving from SA may be very unhappy indeed...people on their way toward a relayish system or happily embracing Gazzilli after 1NTF may be delighted.

[aguahombre]

And using a 12-14 NT, how do you resolve:

1H-1S
1NT= eleven OR 15-17?

[apjames]

aguahombre, on 2011-August-29, 21:42, said:

And using a 12-14 NT, how do you resolve:

1H-1S
1NT= eleven OR 15-17?

Play 1NT = 11-14 including any 5332, and play some system to find it if you like. One of the biggest advantages of a weakNT is that 1 of a suit is either 15+ or unbalanced.

[Lurpoa]

mgoetze, on 2011-August-22, 05:40, said:

Well, "should discuss", dunno... if I play a 16 board pickup game I expect this type of sequence to come up 0.1 times.

♥ ♥ ♥

EXACTLY, my dear ♥,
You can not expect that your partner expects that you expect that you have the same ideas about what is standard.

That is why, we say, you must agree with your partner on this....

Believe us !

♥ ♥ ♥

[Vampyr]

Siegmund, on 2011-August-29, 21:07, said:

How happily they coexist depends how unhappy you are about the high frequency and low information content of 1M-1NTF.

Yes, there is something rather nauseating about bidding 1NT with 12 or 13 HCP and a decent suit; but if 2/1 is GF and partner is opening 11-counts, I have to have 14 pts to bid 2/1.

I personally think that there are some good things about 2/1 GF, but I also think that forcing 1NT is too high a price to pay.

aguahombre, on 2011-August-29, 21:42, said:

And using a 12-14 NT, how do you resolve:

1H-1S
1NT= eleven OR 15-17?

This is unplayable, in my opinion.

[mike777]

I was taught
wk nt wins less than game deals
wk nt loses game+ auctions.

your experience may differ
----

Inote Chip Martel does ok playing eastern sci.