[awm]

ELC can be defined in a number of different ways. Personally I've always played that a takeout double might not include the cheapest suit, and that correcting from the cheapest suit to the next suit doesn't show extras. That would apply to doubling and then bidding hearts when the opponents opened a minor.

The advantage to this is pretty much the same as the reason for doubling on this hand. Suppose you have a 4513 15-count. You could easily miss a game in spades by overcalling 1♥. Yet doubling and passing could land you in a silly diamond contract (and it's a lot worse if they opened 1♦ and your minors are reversed). Yes, you occasionally get into trouble with this method when you have a big one-suited hand with hearts and have to jump after partner's diamond response. But partner doesn't always bid diamonds (actually he's pretty likely to advance in spades when you have a heart one-suiter).

[gwnn]

You are very categorical about finding a heart game when we have a 5-3 fit when you start with a double, however it is not always quite so simple as that, for example in your favourite auction 1♣-x-3♣, partner will often just bid 3NT and we have to guess. There are also cases when the knowledge of a 5-4 fit is vital for partner to know how good his hand is and if we just double he will be inclined to stay lowish. You might say yes yes but we can raise hearts too if we know partner has 4, yes indeed but we would also do that on a 4 card suit and some extras, so it's just not so clear. Your takeout double situations will suffer from having to cater to all sorts of hands with a 5-card major. For example 1♣-x-p-2♣ auctions are complicated already, now we have to cater to all sorts of situations and partner will be forced to bid 2♣ on all these major suit holdings: 23, 32, 33, 43, 34, 44.

So I believe you are slightly oversimplifying the difficulties you may run into when you double. That's ok, everybody does it. However, how can you possibly say that if we have a 4-4 fit and game on and I overcall 1♥, then you win with double and we lose by overcalling?? Partner will make a negative double and we will bid spades! Woo hoo!!

So you guess 1♥ does have an upper limit after all, don't you think it would have been nice to let the B/I people know about this U-shaped curve of your style instead of implying that you would overcall on a 22 count?

Also, my original post was quite short, it had 3 simple questions. I think you gave answers to two of them but didn't talk aobut 3541's. Do you also double for takeout on 3541's?

[Quantumcat]

My original point was only to think about your rebid before you decided upon a particular action. Just like if you hold a balanced 16 count with a five card heart suit, beginners will quickly open this 1-heart because they remember being told that if you have a five card or longer major you open it, then on the next round they can't figure out what they should rebid.

With a 3541, I would still make a takeout double, because with equal length in the majors partner will bid hearts. The only "bad" thing is if partner has four spades and three hearts, in which case he'll bid spades, but that won't be too bad because the singleton is in the 3-trump hand, and it's still a fit after all.

A 5341 is trickier, because with equal hearts and spades he will bid hearts. In that case I would probably overcall 1♠ and let the chips fall where they may. On the upside, I have announced the boss suit, giving us a lovely advantage in any competitive auction when pard decides to support us.

[Antrax]

Quantumcat, on 2011-August-21, 01:28, said:

With a 3541, I would still make a takeout double, because with equal length in the majors partner will bid hearts.

Wait what? I thought with equal length, when responding to TO double, you're supposed to bid the higher suit first, to prepare a lower suit rebid if the opponents compete further and partner passes.

[gwnn]

Antrax, on 2011-August-21, 04:13, said:

Wait what? I thought with equal length, when responding to TO double, you're supposed to bid the higher suit first, to prepare a lower suit rebid if the opponents compete further and partner passes.

That is correct.

Holding 44 in the majors you should always reply spades first, planning to rebid hearts next, for example

1♣-x-p-1♠
p-2♣-p-2♥

is a much better auction than

1♣-x-p-1♥
p-2♣-p-2♠.

[Quantumcat]

If partner has a good enough hand to be asking what other suits you have, he probably doesn't care if you are a level higher than necessary. He's hardly going to pass on his third turn if he starts with

1♣-x-p-1♠
p-2♣-p-2♥

Since you are never going to play in 2♥ anyway, you don't really need to bid your suits in an order which allows you to play there. You may as well bid them naturally.

[MrAce]

Perhaps it wasnt the best example to give, when pd cues u maybe right it doesnt matter since he has a big hand we will not play 2♥

However it may matter in another auction

(1♣)-DBL-(pass)-1♠
(2♣)-pass-(pass)-2♥

(1♣)-DBL-(1[diamond )-1♠
(2♦) -pass - (pass) -2♥

etc

To assure playing in 4-4 fit, if there is any of course.