[Laird]

Hello All

I had a wee look into the expert forum and saw this lead problem posed by The_Hog ( extracted from yesterdays national pairs)...

Bidding Explanation of Bids
1C p 3C p 1C any 15+
3D p 3H p 3C any solid 7+suit
3S p 3NT p 3D How long
6H 3H Some 8 carder
3S Any extras
3NT No
Your lead from

s Axxx
h x
d Qxxx
c T98x

Before I even attempt a lead I have some questions....
How can you get to 6H on this information without winking with your left eye for hearts, your right eye for spades, scratching your nose for diamonds or your ear for clubs?

What kind of inference does the player make from his own holding of cards to make such a bid?

Is there some kind of fail safe mechanism such as correct to spades if wrong?

Does the bidding route only apply to major suits?

My lead... small club.... hope to gain T and A of spades in end play but small heart may be safest???????? :-

Anybody got a clue?

John

[the hog]

Before I even attempt a lead I have some questions....
How can you get to 6H on this information without winking with your left eye for hearts, your right eye for spades, scratching your nose for diamonds or your ear for clubs?

What kind of inference does the player make from his own holding of cards to make such a bid?

Work out the answers to questions 1 and 2 and you probably have found your lead

Is there some kind of fail safe mechanism such as correct to spades if wrong?

No - you are on your own

Does the bidding route only apply to major suits?

Definitely not. The given sequence is what applies to all solid suits, with or without extra strength outside.

[Laird]

Hello All

After the clues supplied by The_Hog it is quite obvious what to lead ... I'm sure you will all agree!

Lead from:

s Axxx
h x
d Qxxx
c T98x

It has to be the Q of diamonds because...

declarer is expected to have a solid suit in hearts and first round stoppers in other suits except clubs which he suspects as being partners solid suit.
He might have something like

s Kx
h AKQxxx
d Ax
c x

Playing the Qd knocks out the ace for promotion of K in partners hand and eventual return of s for A to put contract down.

Oh! Maybe not! I don't know! Maybe I should lead Ace spades but a void may be present when an 8 carder exists. No the small heart is best and safest. Maybe not I am giving away control .........HELP? :- :- :-

Anybody got a clue?

John

[the hog]

It is a hard question because dummy may have
KQJxx
xxx
AK
Axx

Note that opposite 8 solid H I have 11 tricks and the S lead will help me set up the 12th.

In the actual situation, you KNOW dummy has the K of S, else these guys are mad and off the AK. But what if dummy has AJ of S, or dummy has the K and declarer the J. Isn't there a good chance that declarer might misguess?

The full hands were
KJx
xxxx
AKJx
AJ

xx
AKQxxxxx
x
xx

On a D or a C lead declarer can make the hand by hooking D after running 8 H to see what happens.
A low S lead really puts him to the test. You can alse see now how I knew my pd had a H suit - it had to be H as I had an honor everywhere else.

[csdenmark]

Beginner and Intermediate Bridge Discussion
For our novice to intermediate members to discuss issues and share advice (and for more skilled players to answer questions .


This is the headline for the sector of BBO Forum you comment on here!

Yours Claus - csdenmark

[the hog]

Claus, I answered the question here because Laird posed it here.

[csdenmark]

Right of course Ron!

I think I never see those writing here who I see having problems at the bridge table. I never see those problems causing misunderstandings and partnership-divorses here.

Which problems?

Transfers - 4 or 5 card responses - requirements for 2-level bidding - responses to weak 2-open - DONT/Capp - etc. you name it!

I really think that most of what I see the experts post's on BBO Forum they simply ought to discuss in partnership bidding. Individual layouts are of no interest to me - how to handle such depends completely on which systems and agreements you play according to. I therefore would like the experts to explain how to handle in different systems.

The meaning of a DBL dont really have much in common between SAYC and Precision. Playing SAYC or ACOL your response to partner call is of different meaning too.

Yours Claus - csdenmark

[Laird]

Hi Claus

Sorry you feal this way.
I posted the question because I believe I meet the definition of an Intermediate ie 'Someone who is comparable in skill to most other members of BBO'. There are times however when I struggle with that definition, especially when playing against others with their 2/1 and SAYC systems etc.
I have posted messages in the hope that as I learn from the better players then perhaps anyone who may read the answers will also learn.
I get frightened off by the posts in the expert area but I thought by introducing one in the Intermediate area then a slower and gentler explanation of what takes place may be of some benefit?
Perhaps you do not consider The_Hog expert enough to give a reply or is there some other reason that at present escapes me.
I know the posts get read but the responses are few and far between. Perhaps I am wrong to make such posts, but to me if you are in a community then everyone should try to make some kind of contribution.
Kind regards

John

[Rhutobello]

know the posts get read but the responses are few and far between. Perhaps I am wrong to make such posts, but to me if you are in a community then everyone should try to make some kind of contribution.

Agree with you John, I think we need people asking questions, and I think the community itself has much to gain with such postings :

I also agree with your heading for this post, and the way The_hog respond to you.

You hope for more active posters, and so do I, but in order to let that happen, we must promote such posting, rather to complain on them :

Agein, a community is a place for a lot of opinions, promote them and you learn, denay them and you become ignorant

(No one must take offence of this posting, made general ;D)

[inquiry]

Quote

After the clues supplied by The_Hog it is quite obvious what to lead ... I'm sure you will all agree! Lead from:

s Axxx
h x
d Qxxx
c T98x

It has to be the Q of diamonds because...

declarer is expected to have a solid suit in hearts and first round stoppers in other suits except clubs which he suspects as being partners solid suit.
He might have something like

s Kx
h AKQxxx
d Ax
c x

Hi John,

You asked for help, but I think you confused the auction a little. From the hand you posted for "declearer" in this problem it is clear that you missed something in the auction. Let's return to the bidding for a moment to show you what...

1C p 3C p 1C any 15+
3D p 3H p 3C any solid 7+suit
3S p 3NT p 3D How long
6H 3H Some 8 carder
3S Any extras
3NT No

You see that Declearer is the hand with solid hearts (as you summized) but 3H didn't show a solid heart suit, it showed any solid eight card suit that just happened to be hearts by chance. Then 3S asked if "responder" had any extra cards. The 3NT said no. So the hand you supposed for declearer of 6H (I assume you meant to type 8 hearts) with the side SPADE KING and side DIAMOND ACE simple isn't possible. That hand has two extras... the DA and SK. So declearer's hand is something like....

S-xx
H-AKQJTxxx
D-xx
C-x

The solution to the "correct" lead therefore lies with the bidding and the answer to your initial questions from your original post. So let's handle them with answers rather than new questions....

How can you get to 6H on this information without winking with your left eye for hearts, your right eye for spades, scratching your nose for diamonds or your ear for clubs?

Opener must be looking at honors in SPADES, DIAMONDS and CLUBS. Think for instance SPADE-KING and ACES in both minors. Since his partner promised a "solid suit", and hearts in the only suit he lacks honors in, he knows his partner has a solid heart suit without being specifically told. He knew that immediately over the artificial 3C jump, based upon the cards in his own hand.

What kind of inference does the player make from his own holding of cards to make such a bid?

See answer above. Also, I supect The_Hog has a method to ask which is the solid suit. For instance assume the opener's hand is something like...
S-AKQJ H-xx D-AKQJT C-xxx, maybe 3D ask for lenght as in this hand, but 3H has for which is the solid suit since here opener can not tell from his own hand.

Is there some kind of fail safe mechanism such as correct to spades if wrong?

Opener can not be wrong, since he knows from his hand what "solid suit" responder has. The only thing that can wrong here is if responder, looking at a bunch of clubs forgot the meaning of 3C and thought he was making a preemptive bid in clubs or a limit raise in clubs. These things happen of course, when they do, learn to laugh them off and move on. If they happen too frequently, change to something easier to remember.

Does the bidding route only apply to major suits?

I think The_hog answered this, but the answer is no. This allows opener to start counting tricks very quickly (7 or 8 in partners hand, check for extra's... maybe a King or Ace extra trick, then bid slam/grand slam or signoff).

Playing the Qd knocks out the ace for promotion of K in partners hand and eventual return of s for A to put contract down. Oh! Maybe not! I don't know! Maybe I should lead Ace spades but a void may be present when an 8 carder exists. No the small heart is best and safest. Maybe not I am giving away control .........HELP? Anybody got a clue?

You know that opener can come darn near counting 12 tricks. He sees 8 heart tricks, he knows his partner lacks an ace or king (extras), and I wonder if this no extra response also denies a side queen. So West should have the CLUB and DIAMOND ACES, as well as the spade KING. That already is 11 tricks (8 hearts, two aces, the spade king since the ACE is right for them). Leading the SPADE ACE is a give up play unless this is matchpoint and you are happy they bid 6H instead of 6NT. The reason why is opener also has at least 4 more points somewhere, and maybe more. And those points maybe in the form or club or diamond king (giving him 12 tricks instantly when he gets in) or maybe both, giving him 8H, 2C, 2D. The hand he held is actually very much what one hopes for when one underleads the spade ACE at trick one. You want to put declearer to the test of guessing did you underlead the spade ACE or SPADE QUEEN.

The Diamond QUEEN will likely solve their problems (yes it is possible Opener has DAxx but, in that case, bidding the slam off the known spade ace and diamond king would have been risky unless he also holds solid clubs himselfs. He would win the diamond ace, pull trumps, then cash enough clubs to make. The low spade on the other hand has a reasonable shot to beat 6H even if solid clubs exist. If opener has S-KJ(x) he has a horrific guess at trick one. Think opener as holding....

S-KJx
H-x
D-Axx
C-AKQJxx

Only a low spade causes any trouble at all... even if partner has the Diamond king. Also same for the actual hand. At matchpoints, some thought to cashing spade ACE has to be considered, but at imps, this is fairly close to a nobrainer...you just lead a low spades and hope for the best.

Ben

[Codo]

Hi Ben,

, but at imps, this is a nobrainer...just lead a low spades and hope
This is a nobrainer for you and Rado maybe
For the big rest it is somewhere between:"Will never find this at the table" to "after hours of thinking...".

Kind Regards

Roland

[inquiry]

Quote

Hi Ben,

, but at imps, this is a nobrainer...just lead a low spades and hope
This is a nobrainer for you and Rado maybe
For the big rest it is somewhere between:"Will never find this at the table" to "after hours of thinking...".

Kind Regards

Roland

Point taken, one does have to work through the implications..... so I have edit my post to say it is close to a no-brainer. Thanks :-).. and thanks for putting me in the same sentence with Rado, you flatter me and insult him all in one line. I hope he doesn't take offense, but i am honored.

Ben

[Rado]

Hi all,
Seems this simple lead problem leads to enormous discussion including areas that do not fit with the real question: What will be your lead and why?

In my view people must always try to solve such bidding/play problems as closer as possible to their live table experience/actions. Learning to think quick, learning to think just about what is needed is one of the main goals to become better player. Of course long thorough studies are also helpful, especcially when they point the logic of this and that, but again must have the aim to do the right things in normal time for a bridge hand. My advice for the less experienced players: when reading some problem try to answer 2 times - 1st (just for you of course) in about 1-2 minutes, 2nd - after complete study of all other possible situation/alternatives. Handling this way you will improve your table decisions more quickly and in near future many of your 1st and 2nd answers will be same.
Regards, Rado

[Rhutobello]

Agree with you Rado, real play is the main teacher, and the only way to become better as player.

But, as a lower level player, reading post as this thread, I get input in new metodes to how I should threat different problems, and maybe a smarter way to think, or maybe find out how my future oponent think , therfore I think we shall allow a broader discussion then just a narrow question, as long as it can give something posetive to the community:D

But yes, it is only ouerself that can improve our skills by using our own brain..... and then I might stand as a beginner.. :
Big ;D to you all!

[the hog]

One last post from me on this one. To some extent your lead may also be inflenced by who is on your left. The underlead of the SA may occur to a "tricky" player or a good player. My partner said, for example, that he would have played the K had a small S been lead, as the opening leader was a very good player. (I don't believe him).

Ben also mentioned that we might employ a method to discover the solid suit. What we use is detailed below. It is not hard to tack on to any big C system. I did not want to post it here, so if anyone is interested, it is in the Expert secition, where the lead discussion started in the first place.