[plaur]

How much are these hands worth after partners 1♥?
(Playing 12-14NT in case you wanted to open 1NT)

Hand 1:
KT
KQ72
AKT72
72

1♦ - 1♥
worth 3♥ or 4♥?
Do you play 3♠ as cue here?

Hand 2:
T
KQ72
AKT72
K72

1♦ - 1♥
worth 3♠?

[Zelandakh]

The first hand is an obvious 3H rebid. This hand could come from a book. 3S instead of 3H would be a splinter for me, not a cue. 3S after 3H would certainly be a cue, although a style where it shows a suit (natural slam try) is playable. The second hand is very close between a maximum 3H and a minimum 3S for me but my preference is 3S unless partner's 1H is "4 hearts and any other 9 cards".

[Phil]

Remember when you play a 12-14 NT that a simple raise to 2♥ already shows '15-17 support points'. Partner should be playing you for either a strong NT-type hand, or a minimum hand with some shape that precluded opening 1N in the 1st place. A jump raise shows a very good hand, and in old KS, it was virtually a force.

Accordingly, in your first example, this is a near maximum TWO heart call.

In your second example, this is a normal 3♥ call.

[mikeh]

In my 12-14 (11-14 in one case) partnerships, both hands qualify for 2♥. The first one isn't even a maximum (obviously, since it is weaker than the second).

The idea is that the raise shows either 15-17 balanced (but not a control rich 17) or a shapely hand, unsuitable for 1N. Since 1N is permissible with 4=5 reds due to rebid issues after 1♦ - 1♠, the first one falls squarely inside the anticipated hand type. It is useful to play an asking bid over the raise so that opener can describe his hand type...various schemes are available, ranging from simple to complex.

On the second, this is a maximum single raise and I wouldn't quarrel too much with a 3♥ bid. However, in a logical 12-14 NT method, 3♥ is virtually forcing.

Of course, the extent to which you adopt this sort of approach will depend on style and preferences. One of the side effects, in my experience, of playing 12-14 is that it works best if responder really stretches to respond in a major to a 1m opening. This is necessary to get back to the field, and to avoid a bad minor suit contract when responder has, for example, xxx K10xxx xx Jxx and partner opens 1♦...bad enough if 1♦ promises 4 but horrible if 1♦ could be 4=4=3=2....now passing risks playing in a 3=2 fit when we have a 9 card heart fit.

The corollary to this style is that opener needn't....shouldn't...strain to overbid when choosing between two strong raises....2♥ or 3♥.

[quiddity]

I don't have much experience with this structure - would you also raise partner's major with an unbalanced minimum and 3-card support? That seems like a massive range for 2♥; 12 points with 3-card support or 17 points with 4-card support?

[mikeh]

quiddity, on 2011-August-05, 12:09, said:

I don't have much experience with this structure - would you also raise partner's major with an unbalanced minimum and 3-card support? That seems like a massive range for 2♥; 12 points with 3-card support or 17 points with 4-card support?

I can't speak for the Acol types amonsgt us. My experience with 12-14 is with two experts who 'learned' to play bridge in Eastern Canada. While Kokish doesn't, as far as I know get or claim recognition for creating the style, he certainly has written about it, and the school of thought to which (I think) he belongs, as do my ex-Eastern partners, is that the single raise always delivers 4 card support.

This is not usually problematic. If one has only 3 card support, one either has a rebiddable suit, or a weak 1N opening, or a side suit to offer....the worst case is 1=4=5=3 after a 1♠ response, and one can fudge a 2♣ call or rebid 2♦...neither is perfect, but either is a far better compromise than raising the major.

[VM1973]

You did not mention the scoring.

You can make game on as little as:

♠xxx
♥Axxx
♦Qx
♣xxxx

Both hands have only 5 losers. I would bid 4♥ with both hands at IMPs (or use whatever other tools are available splinters, etc.).

Even if you trade the ♦Q for a ♦J you have a reasonable shot at game.

[Phil]

VM1973, on 2011-August-05, 14:45, said:

You did not mention the scoring.

You can make game on as little as:

♠xxx
♥Axxx
♦Qx
♣xxxx

Both hands have only 5 losers. I would bid 4♥ with both hands at IMPs (or use whatever other tools are available splinters, etc.).

Even if you trade the ♦Q for a ♦J you have a reasonable shot at game.

Don't you think partner can raise to 4♥ with this hand?

[the hog]

3H on both hands looks normal to me after years of playing Acol.

[VM1973]

Phil, on 2011-August-05, 15:43, said:

Don't you think partner can raise to 4♥ with this hand?

I wouldn't expect partner to bid game holding this hand after
1♦-1♥
3♥

But then again, I was taught that one should strive to invite, not to accept (at IMPs).

[JLOGIC]

quiddity, on 2011-August-05, 12:09, said:

I don't have much experience with this structure - would you also raise partner's major with an unbalanced minimum and 3-card support? That seems like a massive range for 2♥; 12 points with 3-card support or 17 points with 4-card support?

This is the worst part of weak NTs in a standard system to me. A 5431 11 or 12 count is not the same as a balanced 16 count with 4 trumps. Mikeh mentioned 1453 over spades, but if you open 1C you also have 1435 and 1345 over spades, and 3145 over hearts. To me opening 1D and rebidding 2C or opening 1C and rebidding 2C is not palatable in either case. And of course there are some hands with 6331 that I would want to raise, and it creates some issues with 4315 if you like to raise and/or play 1S then 2H as extras.

It is of course manageable, perhaps passing the worst marginal openers appeals (I think K/S had sound minor suit openings or something so that helped), sometimes you will have a good 5 card suit or 4 good diamonds and you can just go with it.

All that said, I still think if you routinely raise to 2 on average 17 counts and hands like hand 2, and never raise with 3, your range is still too wide (especially if you normally like to open reasonably light). A 5431 11 or 12 count is just not nearly as good as a 4432 16 count. I like weak NT but I think this is a real issue.

Personally I think you should often suck it up and bid 3 with average 17 counts or unbalanced hands worth that, basically like half a point lighter than you would in standard, for the sake of not having such a wide range to raise to 2 (and again you can make your range less wide by opening sounder 1m bids with unbalanced hands, but I would hate to do that). And I think I just disagree with Mikes evaluation of the second hand, it is a clear 3 to me even in weak NT, it's only 15 but it has a great suit, no jacks, and all prime cards, and even the diamond ten. But usually I would agree that 15 and a stiff is the borderline, so I think Mike and I basically agree, I am just always a glass is half full guy with hands like this.

If you are playing weak NT you should expect basically to lose some in competitive auctions when you don't open 1N imo, a lot of times hardcore weak NTers will say they're at an advantage because if the auction goes something like 1C 2S partner can raise to 3C more often knowing you don't have a balanced minimum etc, but I think they are deluding themselves. That said, you should expect to win quite a bit when you do open 1N imo, especially when it's their hand, or it's your hand to declare some normal contract... and you will be opening 1N more frequently.

[Phil]

JLOGIC, on 2011-August-09, 09:44, said:

It is of course manageable, perhaps passing the worst marginal openers appeals (I think K/S had sound minor suit openings or something so that helped), sometimes you will have a good 5 card suit or 4 good diamonds and you can just go with it.

I had heard somewhere that KS needed about a Rule of 22 to open an unbalanced hand 1m. I'm not sure I can handle passing a hand like x Kxx Axxxx KQxx.

Agree with JLogic that a sensible solution is to pull the requirements for a jump raise down a little to take pressure of the 2M raise.

[paulg]

Most Acol experts I know will raise with 3-card support and a minimum opener when they hold a singleton in the other major, for example a 3=1=5=4 hand after 1D-1S would be a clear raise to 2S. This is because the delayed raise, such as 1D-1S-2C-2D-2S, is used to show extra values with this distribution.

This is a fundamentally different style to mikeh's and is why I'd expect 3H to be the consensus over here on these hands.